So who is more distant from who? I think we argue that all day long-- so I'd suggest we only see traits of magoi in nishikigoi. And efforts at atavism.

My friend, true.

Perhaps we approach the subject differently. Having spend x number of years now with my carp program, I look into another gene pool with 'other' eyes.

Outside of the carp program, I cannot get as close to 'wild' looking with kohaku to kohaku, but I can get closer with showa, and even closer again with other varieties. For example, I have to be careful when breeding matsukawabake to cull anything with a brown/black tone for that reason. There is a difference in tone to carp, but it is the hardest to pick.

This is perhaps a discussion for another thread.