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Thread: pedigree dogs / pedigree koi

  1. #1
    Tosai
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    pedigree dogs / pedigree koi

    Interesting video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMegQH1SPg
    Can be extrapolated to the koi hobby?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    To a degree, yes. All in-breeding has undesired consequences.

    Any trait that weakens an organism in its environment will increase the chances of that organism not surviving to reproduce. The colorful patterns of koi are a weakness in a natural environment in that predators would find them more readily. In the captive environment, where the breeder plays the role of Nature's predators, the lack of colorful patterns increases survival risk. With the recessive traits we desire in koi come traits that are not desirable. Much has been written on the small size of koi in decades past. It became a goal to produce koi with the size of the wild carp. Over time much progress has been made in that regard. Undesirable traits have appeared in the tendency toward developing hikkui, which seems less widespread today than it was 20 years ago, perhaps due to breeders not using hikkui-prone koi as oyagoi.

    I do not think it is possible to say to what extent deformities are greater among koi than in wild carp populations. I am not aware of studies on the point. It seems logical that there would be more deformities and that more koi with deformities would survive due to the care provided by their human keepers.

    In considering these matters, it is easy to react by condemning a process that produces deformed creatures, particularly where the creature suffers. There is also the fact that the creatures produced for human enjoyment would not have ever existed but for the process that is condemned. Nature is what it is. It is the human consciousness that labels it cruel. And that is what lifts us up, making civilization possible, as we seek to perfect ourselves over generations too numerous to comprehend and to escape the reality of life on Earth.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djembe View Post
    Interesting video:
    BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed - full movie in good quality - YouTube
    Can be extrapolated to the koi hobby?

    Good point and clever of you to see the links. I guess every time we see selective breed we tend to 'concentrate' the desirable with the undesirable. I also know that as a group, the dog breeders are mostly amateurs or amateurs under the umbrella of a truly experienced breeder. And it is very tempting; in the dog world to 'fudge' the defects and health issues because the good traits are so appealing. Hips in big dogs are a very good example of this.
    But koi is more hopeful. There is no doubt that inbreeding has brought us weaker individuals than wild carp. That can't be helped as Mother Nature culls for survivability and not for looks (unless they help from being eaten!).
    And there is no doubt that pattern quests of the 1950s-1980s brought us smaller koi.
    But outcrosses which dog breeders find hard to do, are common juncture points in the history of nishikigoi. The doitsu, the magoi, the longfin are all examples. In addition the foundation stock was three distant strains to begin with.
    It is also important to appreciate that koi varieties are not really varieties as are dogs. They are more 'cocka-poos and 'doodle-labs than true pedigree. There really are ONLY a few true lines and they are all Gosanke.
    This is hard to get one’s head around until we cull a spawn from two ‘like adults’. Then you are exposed to the very broad selection of mutation traits in koi. We would be truly shocked to see bull dogs in a litter of collies. But in koi we see tancho, beni goi and crow in random spawns and even outcrosses when we make a ‘new variety’ from ochiba and kohaku.
    So in this regard we can’t compare dogs’ problems of inbreeding lines to the selective breeding of nishikigoi.
    But odd random deaths in lines of kohaku ‘might’ be getting closer to your point/concern.

    Great subject, thanks, JR


  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    ...and even crossing Ochiba with Ochiba produces not nearly as many Ochiba as folks would think.

  5. #5
    Tosai
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    The colorful patterns of koi are a weakness in a natural environment in that predators would find them more readily
    Yes, I think this is the only point color can afect healty, right?
    Regarding the conformation of the body:

    Are healthy the requirements for a great champion in a koi show?
    Are the judges of the koi show helping to improve the genetics (in a body conformation way) of the koi?

    Great subject, thanks, JR

  6. #6
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Crooked heads, under sized pecs, deformed fins underneath, can be signs that the genes are too closely aligned.

    Altho off subject a lilttle bit, it's interesting to note the course that Racing pigeons have taken with an emphasis on genetics. The last several decades breeders have focused only on developing speed and the result has been birds that don't cope with any type of weather conditions. As long as it's a "blue bird" day, they perform well. Those that know this hobby should know about the value of getting back to birds developed from breeders with the correct "eye sign". Birds bred from racer to racer don't have " a common sense" factor anymore.

    cats,dogs horses have would be owners carefully checking pedigrees prior to purchase. Sure looks good on paper!

    when you looking into National winners in the world of Koi, tho the popularity of owning a child of a national winner is attractive, how many of the national winners have been bred and rebred with different fathers and all to no avail.
    Probably the best example was a Koi that took the national twice and yet never produced anything of value all the years she was bred.
    Dick Benbow

  7. #7
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    It's pretty long but I watched the entire video. It's is pretty sad what the dogs breeders have done to the health of the dogs for purely cosmetic purposes. I don't see it being nearly the same with koi, but fancy goldfish on the other hand...... compare much more closely...... as many do suffer health effects from the result of misplaced swim bladders and the like. The bubble-eyed goldfish can have the sacks easily ruptured, and the telescope goldfish often have an eye sucked out by other goldfish. I suspect the lifespan of the fancy goldfish.......especially the extremely mutated varieties........is much less than the common goldfish from whence they came.

    PS
    There is one area where show koi and show dogs have something in common....... and that is in the use of culling. About the 17-minute part of the video deals with how ridgebacks are often put down if they don't have the ridges. The video also goes on to point out to how the ridges can lead to health problems the ones born without the ridges don't have.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djembe View Post
    Yes, I think this is the only point color can afect healty, right?
    Regarding the conformation of the body:

    Are healthy the requirements for a great champion in a koi show?
    Are the judges of the koi show helping to improve the genetics (in a body conformation way) of the koi?


    Good questions! health in a koi show is definitely considered in that a fish must swim, show normal conformation ( no tumors or mouth definites) , blind fish are disqualified and fish with 'hanging tails or floating upwards are marked down. And any fish that shows up with an active infection in a ZNA show is not judged. I recently saw a fish in show down south that had active localized dropsy ( dropsy crown) showing as the judges were reviewing it! That usually doesn't happen!
    There was a time when koi shows in Japan were actually part of an agricultural fair. There, the judges were conditioned to the idea that judging beauty was not art but rather assessing stock for soundness and color. That way, only the winners would be used to breed future generations. This is of course the practical side of a koi show today, even though not many winners are actually 'stud fish' or 'breed fish'. But in Japan that thread is still very much present. Congential defects and deficiencies are therefore a very big deal in ZNA shows in Japan. And they filter over here to our 'beauty contests' as just rules and often the practical side is forgotten.
    When judging fish, we judge against an ideal or standard. yet there really are no perfect fish! So we weed out the ill first, the deformities and defects are sorted and eliminated before or during judging accordly, those poorly cared for and the poor examples of a breed. We then rank them according to their placement against a standard and each other. JR

  9. #9
    Nisai
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    Question
    When it comes to interbreeding koi how far does a breeder gO before introducing new blood?
    Ben

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben5020 View Post
    Question
    When it comes to interbreeding koi how far does a breeder gO before introducing new blood?
    Ben

    usually a Japanese breeder is working with the same fish, year after year with test breedings in the mix. When a big breeder sets up a dozen pairs or trios, the fish are usually his proven stock. Some breeders I know have ridden their oyagoi into the ground and started over. Others try and buy back customer stock when they unexpectedly loose a good oyagoi. JR

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