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Thread: Liner pond/mud pond

  1. #1
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Forreston,IL
    Posts
    1,073

    Liner pond/mud pond

    i am doing a little expierment with a "waste "pond this year 13,000 gallons and growing some tosai in it to see what happens.
    this pond has about 8 or so waterlilies in it and plants growing along edge.
    i do have a liner and did dump some dirt at one end to grow lotus(has not worked last 3 years)
    so main purpose for this pond was the waste water from backwashing filters(2 ultimas for mechanical)/waterchanges about 350-500 gallons a day.the water would go in this pond and go out slowly instead of making mud puddle in pasture area(now big flower bed)

    past year have just had goldfish in it for bug control but this year decided i try a few (got to many) tosai for fun and see what happens also have a medo 100 running in this pond

    so my question is if this turns out pretty good i may go bigger.now i know a true mud pond would be best but in case it would not hold water i would do a liner.about 30,000 gallons would be my guess

    would you add clay in bottom or just let it go?
    and if let go would you muck out bottom each year? as i will get some muck cause i know i will.

    if i did natural pond i would go ALOT bigger but would never afford the liner so bad enough to get something like 50 X 100 liner is bad enough.

    so just asking to see and think while i wait and see what happens this fall with the koi coming out.
    will still be wste pond but could build smaller pond for it to go in first then overflow into main pond if needed but then would have to have few goldies in there for bug control so would love to be just one pond.

    so being waste water will create some excitement but i feel alright so far since waste is min. with daily backwashing and water is green and plants are alot to help some of that plus big air pump running to help with O2 at night

    so main question is would you add mud and how much on top of a liner pond for growout only no filtration.
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    i am doing a little expierment with a "waste "pond this year 13,000 gallons and growing some tosai in it to see what happens.
    this pond has about 8 or so waterlilies in it and plants growing along edge.
    i do have a liner and did dump some dirt at one end to grow lotus(has not worked last 3 years)
    so main purpose for this pond was the waste water from backwashing filters(2 ultimas for mechanical)/waterchanges about 350-500 gallons a day.the water would go in this pond and go out slowly instead of making mud puddle in pasture area(now big flower bed)

    past year have just had goldfish in it for bug control but this year decided i try a few (got to many) tosai for fun and see what happens also have a medo 100 running in this pond

    so my question is if this turns out pretty good i may go bigger.now i know a true mud pond would be best but in case it would not hold water i would do a liner.about 30,000 gallons would be my guess

    would you add clay in bottom or just let it go?
    and if let go would you muck out bottom each year? as i will get some muck cause i know i will.

    if i did natural pond i would go ALOT bigger but would never afford the liner so bad enough to get something like 50 X 100 liner is bad enough.

    so just asking to see and think while i wait and see what happens this fall with the koi coming out.
    will still be wste pond but could build smaller pond for it to go in first then overflow into main pond if needed but then would have to have few goldies in there for bug control so would love to be just one pond.

    so being waste water will create some excitement but i feel alright so far since waste is min. with daily backwashing and water is green and plants are alot to help some of that plus big air pump running to help with O2 at night

    so main question is would you add mud and how much on top of a liner pond for growout only no filtration.
    well I don't know the exact answer to your questions so take what I say with a grain of salt---

    Having been to the koi harvests in Japan each year since 1992 ( stopped going in 2008) I have seen alot. And having had koi in those ponds all that time, I can also comment on results -- both good and bad.
    what I do get from what you have written so far is that you want your pond to LOOK like a Japanese koi pond. Would that it was that simple. Putting mud in the bottom of a liner pond of great volume does not make a good grow out Japanese mud pond.
    Most of the mud ponds are old. Some, after the quake, are quite new and in those special care is taken. That is because a mud pond for tosai grow out is a very conditioned thing and a specifically maintained thing.
    The 'mud' for the pond is highly conditioned and fertilized in tosai ponds. This is so that wild living plankton can be produced in time for the hatching young. A pond for neisai then is a different thing and more of an established/mature pond. And a sansai pond is different, yet again. The difference is in size, depth, age, conditioning of soil ( or not) and the results from previous years with other spawns. many factors.
    But the 'dirt' is going to be very important as 'dirt' can be many things- clay, top soil, organically rich soil, sandy soil etc. Depending on the type, you might need years to get it acclimated to being fully aquatic 'mud'. A soil rich in organics might be good or it might be too rich and make for a bacteria filled toxic situation.
    Honestly unless it is for tosai and being seeded with chicken manure and such, I think your pond should be at least two years old to house growing koi. JR

  3. #3
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Forreston,IL
    Posts
    1,073
    well pond is 5 years old this summer.

    will be honest this pond was made for landscape purpose more then growing koi.hence the dirt in one end for lotus to grow wild well now dirt has moved to whole pond about 8 inches deep of what i would say is muck and not clay.the pond has done really well with reproducing sarassa in throw about 30 in and end up with hundreds(one year 600+) each spring i drain down and try and sell some.well last 2 years i can not even sell smaller ones for 5 for $1 and these are the longfin ones at that.

    so it has been fun for daughter and i to sort through and see what "neat"ones there are and keep a few in other watergarden by house.

    so this pond probably would be good for fry since there is waste going in all the time to keep a nice green water about it but to get fry one must breed and not an option as fun as it would be(close many times but the junk goldfish i get plus can not even sell i do not need hundreds of junk koi either that are unsellable(plus i show so do not want dealer statis)

    so i decided to try and get a few tosai.
    this year have a some decent tosai in there to see($100 tank idea)
    and goal would be maybe 300-$500+ range????? and only about 3-5 total.
    heck do not want to many as anything that i do not want to try and resll would need box store pricing if that much.

    last year went to koi acres mud pond pull(had 1 in there) and just loved to see the koi come up even if i did not own them i saw alot of them in spring before going in.

    then i see pictures on internet of koi in mud pond

    so just for fun i decided to try this tosai thing and will never be good enough for anything except tosai maybe and i mean maybe nisai(3 at most).

    guess i like sitting out there and attempt to feed them and get a thrill of seeing only a mouth at surface and wonder if they even have pec fins not alone if growing or what.so guess it is a thrill seeker/expierment for me.seems i like sitting out there hoping for 1 mouth in a night then sitting by my main pond and seeing the big koi in clear water.

    say basically seeing how i can improve for next year or scrap idea and go back to goldie for bug control after all people wanted to pay $15-$20 for my big goldies i would not sell out of main watergarden seems no one wanted to grow little ones up or did not believe me that they would get the longer fins.

  4. #4
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Forreston,IL
    Posts
    1,073
    posted results on shack if anyone wants to see what dirt covered liner did for me.
    and yes i had higher stocking then planned
    wish i had longer growing season also

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    i am doing a little expierment with a "waste "pond this year 13,000 gallons and growing some tosai in it to see what happens.
    this pond has about 8 or so waterlilies in it and plants growing along edge.
    i do have a liner and did dump some dirt at one end to grow lotus(has not worked last 3 years)
    so main purpose for this pond was the waste water from backwashing filters(2 ultimas for mechanical)/waterchanges about 350-500 gallons a day.the water would go in this pond and go out slowly instead of making mud puddle in pasture area(now big flower bed)

    past year have just had goldfish in it for bug control but this year decided i try a few (got to many) tosai for fun and see what happens also have a medo 100 running in this pond

    so my question is if this turns out pretty good i may go bigger.now i know a true mud pond would be best but in case it would not hold water i would do a liner.about 30,000 gallons would be my guess

    would you add clay in bottom or just let it go?
    and if let go would you muck out bottom each year? as i will get some muck cause i know i will.

    if i did natural pond i would go ALOT bigger but would never afford the liner so bad enough to get something like 50 X 100 liner is bad enough.

    so just asking to see and think while i wait and see what happens this fall with the koi coming out.
    will still be wste pond but could build smaller pond for it to go in first then overflow into main pond if needed but then would have to have few goldies in there for bug control so would love to be just one pond.

    so being waste water will create some excitement but i feel alright so far since waste is min. with daily backwashing and water is green and plants are alot to help some of that plus big air pump running to help with O2 at night

    so main question is would you add mud and how much on top of a liner pond for growout only no filtration.
    If only backwash water is going into it, I think you'd have a poor environment even for junk tosai. It water discharged for water changes also goes into it, the environment would be somewhat better. Much would have to do with the 30,000 gallon volume and the stocking level. I think it would be better if the dirtiest waste water was discharged elsewhere and only the water pumped out to do water changes was used. You would still have anaerobic conditions develop, but not as quickly. It might work as a seasonal grow-out pond as long as the 'season' was not too long. I would recommend adding aeration so harmful gases did not build up in the water.... or, least reduce the build-up. I definitely think it would need to be cleaned out annually. And, I would not add clay. I think it would become an anaerobic trap over the course of a growing season. Even in true mudponds there can be a build-up of harmful gases resulting in fish kills. That is why at NKF you will see a worker whose sole chore in the summer is to walk back & forth in the tosai ponds. It stirs up the bottom, releasing the gases, and reduces the risk. (Larger koi root in the mud bottom continually, preventing the build-up of harmful gases.) And true mudponds are drained and allowed to dry out over the winter, which results in much of the muck oxidizing. Even then, mudponds have to be rejuvenated from time to time.

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