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Thread: Dirty Head?

  1. #1
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Dirty Head?

    Dirty Head?-dscf1964.jpg

    Dirty Head?
    Take a closer look. I'll be back in a few hours....................

  2. #2
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    I see it as a koi that is lacking shiroji on the head and having very thin unrefined skin over the skull which is some of the reason it is more tan colored than the body. Another clue is the color of the fins.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    I won't disrupt this visual lesson except to say that head and the skin associated with the skull, has an entirely different differentiation than the body. Even in doitsu this is true. The Japanese and ZNA call it thinner skin. Indeed it is! But it also 'different skin'. The analogy is not exactly right but I'll throw it out there so you can appreciate the difference between skin and location ( right from the embryo actually). Think of the skin on our own bodies and the skin that covers the soles of your feet. It is not the same. And ONLY in this respect, the skin on a koi's head is different than the skin on the body in many ways. The color then is expressed by the geneotype into phenotype on a schedule and time frame of its own. And its mix of color cells and gene expression ( think of the tancho) and guanine content are all different. That is one of the subjects we went over in the Hikari moyo lecture at our annual ZNA judges' meeting this past March. We also covered this unique condition on Sunday morning during the 'walk around' at the Tri-State ZNA show just past.
    Looking forward to seeing the 'change' Bradley! JR

  4. #4
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post

    Dirty Head?
    Yellow Head.

  5. #5
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    I see it as a koi that is lacking shiroji on the head and having very thin unrefined skin over the skull which is some of the reason it is more tan colored than the body. Another clue is the color of the fins.
    Hi Ray, yes! And hopefully, others picked up on the extra detail. When I was talking about this koi to a fello koi buddy, they were not convinced that it was any more until I flipped the koi over.

    Dirty Head?-dscf1968.jpg

  6. #6
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    I won't disrupt this visual lesson except to say that head and the skin associated with the skull, has an entirely different differentiation than the body. Even in doitsu this is true. The Japanese and ZNA call it thinner skin. Indeed it is! But it also 'different skin'. The analogy is not exactly right but I'll throw it out there so you can appreciate the difference between skin and location ( right from the embryo actually). Think of the skin on our own bodies and the skin that covers the soles of your feet. It is not the same. And ONLY in this respect, the skin on a koi's head is different than the skin on the body in many ways. The color then is expressed by the geneotype into phenotype on a schedule and time frame of its own. And its mix of color cells and gene expression ( think of the tancho) and guanine content are all different. That is one of the subjects we went over in the Hikari moyo lecture at our annual ZNA judges' meeting this past March. We also covered this unique condition on Sunday morning during the 'walk around' at the Tri-State ZNA show just past.
    Looking forward to seeing the 'change' Bradley! JR
    Dirty Head?-dscf1969.jpg
    JR, perhaps this photo will help with looking into the difference between head and body skin.

    Now if someone has a photo of a dirty head on a doitsu it should also add to the learning.

  7. #7
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Dirty head (and yellow head) on a Matsuba.

    Dirty Head?-dirty_head.jpg

  8. #8
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Now if someone has a photo of a dirty head on a doitsu it should also add to the learning.
    Is this a dirty head?


  9. #9
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    the yellow on your koi MrBradley is yellow like sunshine, more of a yamabuki yellow.... not yellow like biege/dirty yellow.
    and there is a shine to it, which can be seen in the profile shot easily in the area between the eye and nose. koi with 'dirty" heads do not have that shine to the color.
    and I too noticed the fins, including the tail, were also yellow

    looking forward to seeing how it developed

  10. #10
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Hi Meg

    One parent here was a kumonryu. There is subtle colour difference here between the body white of a kumonryu, the 'off' white of this koi & the 'off' white (alot more obvious) in the shusui posted by ricshaw. Of course the 'off' is not really white but the effect of pigment mix and depth within the skin. Perhaps others can pick the tone difference in the head? Hopefully the body colour is hinted enough? This gives a clue as the other parent lineage.

    There will be another photo at some stage.

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