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Thread: Need help with endless river pond

  1. #1
    Tategoi
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    Need help with endless river pond

    Hi,

    I still don't have a traditional backyard pond yet and I would like to get everyone's help in building my pond right the first time. I will be using a liner and the main purpose of this pond is to hold koi over the winter and to show off the koi that I breed. So this means that it will never hold a 3 years old koi. This year it will hold tosai and next year it will hold a few nisai and tosai. I will not be doing a lot of feeding in this pond because of the winter thing.

    During the summer months, this pond will only hold my culls; thus, this pond only servers the purpose of holding koi (I will be using this pond to support my bad koi habits). Therefore, I want this to be a tosai/nisai production type (winter) holding pond. Please give me tips and advise.

    At max, this pond will hold ~150 tosai (5"-8"), 10 nisai, 3 sansai or 1 GC. Since I have 1 mud pond with a potential of adding 1 more per year until I reach 6, my interest in this pond might change so I want it to be able to handle a couple 100+ cm females sanke as well.

    Right now the plan is to have an 8 x 16 x (3 slope 5) feet pond and it's powered by airlift. (Is there an airlift foam fractionation design?) Everything will be DIY, including the filter. I have a garden, so during the summer I will be doing a daily 200 - 500 gallon water with adjustment to the garden.

    No UV-lights *Special thanks to JR* I'll blame him in the future if I get one. LOL
    Again, power by air.
    DIY everything
    Filter should be design easy to backwash.
    2- 2 tier filter: mechanical and bio.
    2 sump.
    1 bottom drain
    1 skimmer



    Thanks
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Need help with endless river pond-gckoipond.jpg  
    Last edited by chang26k; 08-23-2012 at 01:24 AM. Reason: added cm to 100+
    Ghost Koi likes this.
    Akitsushima Tombo

  2. #2
    Fry Ghost Koi's Avatar
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    Aug 2012
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    Georgia
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    Talking Endless river pond looks good.

    I still don't have d yet and I would like to get everyone's help in building my pright the first time. I will be using a liner and the main purpose of this pond is to hold koi over the winter and to show off the koi that I breed. So this means that it will never hold a 3 years old koi. This year it will hold tosai and next year it will hold a few nisai and tosai. I will not be doing a lot of feeding in this pond because of the winter thing.

    During the summer months, this pond will only hold my culls; thus, this pond only servers the purpose of holding koi (I will be using this pond to support my bad koi habits). Therefore, I want this to be a tosai/nisai production type (winter) holding pond. Please give me tips and advise.

    At max, this pond will hold ~150 tosai (5"-8"), 10 nisai, 3 sansai or 1 GC. Since I have 1 mud pond with a potential of adding 1 more per year until I reach 6, my interest in this pond might change so I want it to be able to handle a couple 100+ cm females sanke as well.

    Right now the plan is to have an 8 x 16 x (3 slope 5) feet pond and it's powered by airlift. (Is there an airlift foam fractionation design?) Everything will be DIY, including the filter. I have a garden, so during the summer I will be doing a daily 200 - 500 gallon water with adjustment to the garden.

    No UV-lights *Special thanks to JR* I'll blame him in the future if I get one. LOL
    Again, power by air.
    DIY everything
    Filter should be design easy to backwash.
    2- 2 tier filter: mechanical and bio.
    2 sump.
    1 bottom drain
    1 skimmer



    Thanks[/QUOTE]

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Koi View Post
    I still don't have d yet and I would like to get everyone's help in building my pright the first time. I will be using a liner and the main purpose of this pond is to hold koi over the winter and to show off the koi that I breed. So this means that it will never hold a 3 years old koi. This year it will hold tosai and next year it will hold a few nisai and tosai. I will not be doing a lot of feeding in this pond because of the winter thing.

    During the summer months, this pond will only hold my culls; thus, this pond only servers the purpose of holding koi (I will be using this pond to support my bad koi habits). Therefore, I want this to be a tosai/nisai production type (winter) holding pond. Please give me tips and advise.

    At max, this pond will hold ~150 tosai (5"-8"), 10 nisai, 3 sansai or 1 GC. Since I have 1 mud pond with a potential of adding 1 more per year until I reach 6, my interest in this pond might change so I want it to be able to handle a couple 100+ cm females sanke as well.

    Right now the plan is to have an 8 x 16 x (3 slope 5) feet pond and it's powered by airlift. (Is there an airlift foam fractionation design?) Everything will be DIY, including the filter. I have a garden, so during the summer I will be doing a daily 200 - 500 gallon water with adjustment to the garden.

    No UV-lights *Special thanks to JR* I'll blame him in the future if I get one. LOL
    Again, power by air.
    DIY everything
    Filter should be design easy to backwash.
    2- 2 tier filter: mechanical and bio.
    2 sump.
    1 bottom drain
    1 skimmer



    Thanks
    [/QUOTE]


    well, you've heard it before, but a koi pond design is a system-- a synergistic system. That means one MUST be very careful when we mix components from different sources and pick up on different ideas in the area of one segment of the system. It ALL must work together!

    Rather than cherry picking 'parts' I would suggest that you think for a while about concepts-- concepts such as water volume and turn over rates. This is likely going to lead you to a revisit of the drain location and number of drains, piping arrangment and maybe even filter size.
    And you can't do without a UV if you use a Bubble bead or any closed filter system ( sand filters etc). This is bacause between the rapid feeding of tosai and the slow turn over rate and the closed nitrate producting BB, you will need a UV to combat green water. JR

  4. #4
    Fry Ghost Koi's Avatar
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    Georgia
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    Not post starter..

    Chang26k started post,i hit the wrong reply button. But I am interested in knowing abit more about the drainage issues you spoke of. Improper size drain during build,weather to small compaired to water volume.My current pond project is a 15/10/4feet deep,2.5 at the shallow end. What size drain would you recommend?

  5. #5
    Tosai rainblood's Avatar
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    Good luck. What part of GA are you from?

  6. #6
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    The turn over rate I am aiming for is 1 - 3x per hour adjusted to weather and food.

    I'm not using a BB, its going to be a 2 phase filter. 1 phase is going to be a large foam mat to not allow partical in the 2d phase bio media. The bio media might be lava rocks or other type of cheap media.

    The foam mat will not be the only manchanical filter, there will be a net and bags with different hole size. So no UV light. Plus I will be doing a lot of water changes when the time comes.

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Koi View Post
    Chang26k started post,i hit the wrong reply button. But I am interested in knowing abit more about the drainage issues you spoke of. Improper size drain during build,weather to small compaired to water volume.My current pond project is a 15/10/4feet deep,2.5 at the shallow end. What size drain would you recommend?

    Hi, so your pond is about 3400 gallons? Yes? so one drain might be enough but the location worries me. IF you are truning a pond over once every hour or once every two hours you will see some current in the water-- still I'm not confident that you will 'move' waste and mulm from one end of the pond to the other with a weaker/lesser turn over rate.
    If you use 4 inch drain pipe, you will move around 3500 gallons max to the filters. That this a limit and the limit will or will not be reached depending on pump size. I have read for twenty years plus now about the powers of airlift pumps-- but always remained skeptical and used muscle t move water so I can't comment with any authority about how much you will actually move?
    In regards to the synergy and size of your settlement design-- make sure that what ever speed the water moves that it si able to slow when it hits the sump section. This is key as it will allow your first stage to act as a settlement chamber-- or not.
    I only recommend 4 inch drains-- three inch is too confining and a bottle neck and six inch ( especially with long runs with turns) is too slow and can act as a settlement chamber itself.
    hope that helps? JR

  8. #8
    Fry Ghost Koi's Avatar
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    Location of the bottom drain

    The drain should be at the lowest of the pond(correct)? So what are the concerns of the location,there is a slight drop to the lowest point,due to the cut of pond.All of the waste will easily settle in the location of the drain(i hope).So a 4inch drain,and pipe itself is what dirrection I need to head in ? Correct?or is a 4inch drain pipe to large?

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Koi View Post
    The drain should be at the lowest of the pond(correct)? So what are the concerns of the location,there is a slight drop to the lowest point,due to the cut of pond.All of the waste will easily settle in the location of the drain(i hope).So a 4inch drain,and pipe itself is what dirrection I need to head in ? Correct?or is a 4inch drain pipe to large?
    lowest part, yes. end of pond, no. The idea is to place a pond drain in a low spot, typically in the center line of the pond floor as that the 'pull' is equal on all sides. This is like a bath tub drain ( that was conceptually the design as created in Japan in the 1980s). In the original design the drains were spaced out to cover 6 to 8 feet of floor and the drain itself was put into a 3 foot subfloor below the tilted pond floor itself. The inner floor that the drain was set in was then slopped even more to mimic the drain in a vortex. At one point this trend got ridiculous as all things in koi trends tend to get, and the koi had no place to rest or relax and actually could not gain volume in a 'jacuzzi setting with no rest area on the bottom. So things calmed down from there as the 'mission' to draw in all waste had completely lost the plot by abandoning the needs and wants of the fish themselves! This lead to stressed fish that grew like weeds but could not hold volume and soon the low stress ruined the beni on most gosanke. If this was in a warm setting, the decline was dramatic. And in most cases the beni would thin, the gloss would decline and the fish would get long but keep a juvenile body. A common look in the 1990s due to pond designs.
    So--- you want your drain more centered. the idea that waste will be 'swept' by the current or by fish tails and fish activity is wishful thinking. You need a current that is continual and directional-- towards the pull of the drains. It becomes a synergy of current, pull and location-- a synergy--- a good pond is a system. JR

  10. #10
    Fry Ghost Koi's Avatar
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    Bottom drain

    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    lowest part, yes. end of pond, no. The idea is to place a pond drain in a low spot, typically in the center line of the pond floor as that the 'pull' is equal on all sides. This is like a bath tub drain ( that was conceptually the design as created in Japan in the 1980s). In the original design the drains were spaced out to cover 6 to 8 feet of floor and the drain itself was put into a 3 foot subfloor below the tilted pond floor itself. The inner floor that the drain was set in was then slopped even more to mimic the drain in a vortex. At one point this trend got ridiculous as all things in koi trends tend to get, and the koi had no place to rest or relax and actually could not gain volume in a 'jacuzzi setting with no rest area on the bottom. So things calmed down from there as the 'mission' to draw in all waste had completely lost the plot by abandoning the needs and wants of the fish themselves! This lead to stressed fish that grew like weeds but could not hold volume and soon the low stress ruined the beni on most gosanke. If this was in a warm setting, the decline was dramatic. And in most cases the beni would thin, the gloss would decline and the fish would get long but keep a juvenile body. A common look in the 1990s due to pond designs.
    So--- you want your drain more centered. the idea that waste will be 'swept' by the current or by fish tails and fish activity is wishful thinking. You need a current that is continual and directional-- towards the pull of the drains. It becomes a synergy of current, pull and location-- a synergy--- a good pond is a system. JR
    Let me snap afew pics and get them up. Todayd project is gonna be cutting out drain.Give me abit. Thsnks. Ghost.

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