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Thread: 33 day old matsukawabake, just starting to show their true identity

  1. #1
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    33 day old matsukawabake, just starting to show their true identity

    33 day old matsukawabake, just starting to show their true identity-possible-beni-matsu-20121009.jpg33 day old matsukawabake, just starting to show their true identity-dscf3933.jpg33 day old matsukawabake, just starting to show their true identity-matsu-x-kohaku-20121009a.jpg

    all three are from the same 2012 spawn with different looks (kohaku female parent).

    Very early stages of colour and skin development - notice the hue below the white and visibility of the skull plate on the head.

    Dorsally located beni is difficult stablise in this type. The spreading white gene, is active in the same region and usually over runs the beni. I have been progressively selecting for the least active modifier. For now it is a wait and see if the beni stays and if the sumi comes. There are usually 2 hints of sumi to come, even when the body shows none. The first is a grey dullness below skin between the eyes and the second is black in the eye.

    The near black and near white versions have such different looks, but this is an illusion of a stage of sumi expression. The near white has the very dark eyes and the hints of sumi, even now shows deep black.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    all three are from the same 2012 spawn with different looks (kohaku female parent).

    Very early stages of colour and skin development - notice the hue below the white and visibility of the skull plate on the head.

    Dorsally located beni is difficult stablise in this type. The spreading white gene, is active in the same region and usually over runs the beni. I have been progressively selecting for the least active modifier. For now it is a wait and see if the beni stays and if the sumi comes. There are usually 2 hints of sumi to come, even when the body shows none. The first is a grey dullness below skin between the eyes and the second is black in the eye.

    The near black and near white versions have such different looks, but this is an illusion of a stage of sumi expression. The near white has the very dark eyes and the hints of sumi, even now shows deep black.
    VERY interesting, good stuff! JR

  3. #3
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    one of my very favorite Koi varieties. thanks for sharing.

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    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    I'll pop up a more photos ove the next few weeks. They change dramatically, sometimes daily over the next 20-40 days. Today was not a cull, but a grading only by size to isolate the tobies. The first cull is around 45 days, with more culls every 7-14 days.

    For those with an interest in culls, the majority are dark chagoi-types, dark ochiba-look-alike-types - these do not get white, nor do they lighten. There are also aka/shiro muji. The shiromuji with dull grey skulls or black eyes are kept, as they are not true shiromuji. They will get sumi on the body later. There are plenty of black ones too, but only those with no white are culled.
    Tosai_Sunny likes this.

  5. #5
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    interesting, after culling you have both black and white fry! so which for you do you think hold more promise, the not solid black black ones or the not true shiromuji?

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    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Hi Meg

    Appreciate the interest. I do get some lovely Hijaro, Hageshiro, Yotsushiro and some other kawri-types that start off nearly all white and end up nearly all black. My favourite Hageshiro has won numerous prizes for her size and she started off with the deceptive look of an utsurimono. You have seen her photo before. Does a near black version produce better koi than the near white ones? The Hageshiro has exceptional white and deep deep blackest black, so if you like that kind of look............., how she started with her body sumi at the culling stage is not so telling. Likewise, the white ones with a little hint of sumi, do also turn out wonderfully.

    There is one element that is universal in my breeding, to produce to the very best specimens - the eye must be very very black, no matter the amount of sumi on the body. I know you have been following the posts and why the eye is a good indicator of what the sumi can become.

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    Meg
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    oh! new word!
    Yotsushiro
    I get the shiro part but have not seen/heard Yotsu ??? can you go to more depth?

  8. #8
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I always hate to Butt in to someone else's thread....but my love of these colored koi, make me want to share.

    getting to know this group of koi called karasugoi might help if broken down this way

    Haijiro (birdwing) white pecs

    hageshiro- white head

    yotsugiro- 4 white areas to include pecs, head,nose,tail fin

    one rarely seen-sumiinagashi-reticulated black scale with white net pattern

  9. #9
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    33 day old matsukawabake, just starting to show their true identity-33day-43day-compare.jpg

    I appreciate the extra info Dick

    This one is likely to be hard to follow beyond today, as the sumi is emerging fast. 33 days on the left and 43 days on the right. There is a brownish hint of head colour that has all the suggestions of emerging beni

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Good Job ,Dick. And there in lies the truth of karsu and is value as a key genetic trait within the nishikigoi gene pool. A progression of traits.

    In the case of karsu we have a deeply vested black based fish with the presence of a 'white spreading gene'. As the white spreading gene progresses, it replaces more areas of the black base. looking at all the karasu pictures ( or maybe on one of those kids 'flip books of a cartoon drawing that appears to move as the pages flash by) you see a natural progression of this mutation gene in action. You will note that it always appears in 'cold areas' of the body. That is-- extremeties. That is also predictable and doesn't require a lot of selective breeding to refine or create!
    But matsukawabake represents a departure form the neat cordoning off the white spreading gene. Instead it represents a breaking away of yet another spontaneous mutation. It is reticulation based and in that regard, it somewhat mimics the effect we see in kanoko ( a beni genetic trait).

    But here is the greater lesson-- is a zebra white based or black based. The answer is, a Zebra is black based and so is a matsukawabake. JR

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