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Thread: Changing Showa

  1. #1
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    Changing Showa

    Here is a Showa I purchased as Tosai in Feb. 2001 at the Phoenix show. The second picture was taken a few days ago. The first picture maybe a year ago. What I would normally expect for a koi with sumi, is for the sumi to come on in the Winter and diminish in the Summer. I don't like the way this fish is developing at 22 inches. The hi is breaking up and she has at least temporarly lost her head sumi.

    Mike Pfeffer

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    MikeP: I'd not give up on her. There is a lot of sumi underneath and looks to me that it is going to give you a fine pattern when it comes up. I cannot tell if the hi is really breaking up, or if it is just stretched a bit from growing. In some areas, looks to me that it has consolidated. Pics can be difficult to interpret. But, I'll stick my neck out ... I'd guess that she is going to take a couple more years and then will be a beauty. I really like the hi pattern and clean way it is centered. Know which breeder? Looks to me that she is from one of the "old-line" of kindai showa. (Reminds me of pics I've seen in Rinko from late '80s, early 90's.) If so, she will not have the magoi blood Sakai re-introduced, but heavy on the kohaku/sanke blood from one of the older lines? Dick Benbow advised me some time back that I had to wait 8 years to know if a showa was going to turn out as desired. Not sure about that [ :roll: ], but I was reading an article from a dozen years or more ago that said about the same thing in regard to kindai showa. Some were developed from the original Torazo sanke being crossed in, and those were known for taking 5+ years for the sumi to emerge in fixed locations. Not much in all that to hold onto, but I'd hold onto that fish.

  3. #3
    Nisai Sanke56's Avatar
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    One thing I was wondering about sometimes the hi is orange and rarely deep red some fish have a mix of the two this one seems quite orange so is red more desirable or what?

  4. #4
    Sansai shiromujigirl's Avatar
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    If the mix of red and orange is in the form of a red ribbon down the center of the orange scale this is a good thing as it is the color of the koi to come.

  5. #5
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    Breeder

    Mike-

    The breeder is Norihiro Nagata of Kinsuien Yorijo in Kyuushuu prefecture. Mr. Nagata is a good friend of Ben Polanski(Laguna Koi Farms); grew up with Kawakami(Torazo). Attends the LA and San Diego shows each year.

    Mike Pfeffer

  6. #6
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    coupla thoughts on the showa. Red is always the most difficult color to get "right" . The depth of the beni is key. I don't see it in the photos. I do see scaloping red edges which makes me nervous. this koi may have faired better in a climate less conducive to growth. when it comes to showa I like black that is stable and does not fluctuate with temperature.
    however just the opposite with sanke during thier first 3-4 years. I have seen matsunosuke bloodline sanke that shows a shoulder patch at tosai,
    it disappears as nisai, you sell it all discouraged at sansai and you see it again several years later with the shoulder patch and others in perfect condition up and affixed. bottom line as Mike suggested is to hang on to the koi and allow it to develop. no one but the breeder knows what to expect from thier bloodline. monitor your PH and try to establish a stable range in the mid 7's. You may want to back off pushing growth with high temps and high protein pellets.

  7. #7
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    New home

    Dick-

    Thanks for your comments. I'm going to find this girl a new home as I don't think this koi pocesses quality beni. I would keep the koi if the sumi was the only variable even if it was unpredictable but the beni quality just isn't there.

    Mike

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Grew up with Kawakami? Something had me thinking Torazo ... I know I read something somewhere about the hi on the old original "tiger sanke" that gave the Torazo name, and there was something different about it. The thing everybody comments on was that it's sumi was not blocks of black like in bekko, but was more like stripes of black. But there was also something about the hi. Can't recall what, though. Do you know what I'm trying to remember? Somebody lurking on this board must. (Please speak up!!)

    Before you get rid of her, see if you have something around about the "tiger sanke" & its growth characteristics. I just have a feeling that her bloodline has the original Torazo sanke in it to get it kindai, and that may give a hint to what is happening with the hi. She might not be what you want, but she also may not be what you see.

  9. #9
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    Tiger Sanke

    Mike-

    Something to consider. I don't have the information you are seeking. I cut my koi numbers down pretty ruthlessly due to the size of my pond.

    Are you going to the All Florida Show. See you there.

    Mike Pfeffer

  10. #10
    Tosai kmackoi's Avatar
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    water params

    Hi Mike,

    What is your KH like? What is it at the source and do you adjust it for the pond? I know mine is extremely hard up here. I've measured it at 295ppm from the tap before but it typically is in the 140-180 range in the pond. I would think your water favors the sumi too.

    Maybe I can have a look at your fish sometime if you decide to get rid of it.


    Kevin

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