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Thread: Which pond would you choose and why?

  1. #11
    Tategoi hewhoisatpeace's Avatar
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    Guess I didn't think you really meant 1700g.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Go with pond #1, and add plumbing for a future separate filter circuit. When the 10 koi are over 28", you'll want to get the turnover rate around 40-45 minutes.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Knowing the parameters above, which pond would you choose?[/QUOTE]

    I would go for the maximum water volume. Observing how my fish act when releasing them in my mud pond convinced me of that. When I built my pond my main source of information was a large stack of Rinko magazines. I was very concerned about water quality and there was an article that showed how a Japanese breeder improved water quality as well as saved water. From a skimmer he ran water to a little canal by the side of the pond in which he grew tomatoes bare root. This not only took out the nitrates but the mass of roots was great added filtration. I did the same but just have mostly broad leaved grass in it.

    Regards

    Eugene

  4. #14
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Conversion of ammonia or nitrite happens when molecules hit bacteria. What possible benefit is possible with massive water volumes in the filter chambers? Heck, let's take it to the extreme with 1000 gallons for the fish and 9000 gallons for a mountain of matting.
    My brain hurts just thinking about pond concepts...........and other factors that would allow a backyard hobbyist to achieve the kind of growth and skin quality as breeders.

    Let's tread lightly as there are many points that I feel we can learn from this thread:

    IMO, we need to break down pond design to individual components/concept:

    1. Current within a system: Ultimately we want NO dead spots. ALL solids must be removed from pond as quickly as possible. No rocks or shelves or anything that could accumulate solids and cause anaerobic environment and koi injury. We also want areas of rapid flow rate/current and areas of slower flow rate/current (don't confuse slow flow rate/current with dead spots). We can measure current within a pond system as gallons/min/ft2. That is, how many gallons flow through a square foot of area per minute. IMO, this is why we want strong TPR/GPR for circular flow design or a long and narrow pond design for linear flow. I often hear of the 1/2/4 concept. That is, a 5' deep pond should be 10' wide and 20' long. However, if you study linear flow ponds of Brother David and SFF and Momotaro, you see a pond that is at least 3x as long as it is wide. Obviously, a narrower and shallower pond will have a greater current gallons/min/ft2 compared to a wider and deeper pond. Perhaps this is why some of you chose the smaller 5,000 gallon pond in the above scenario.

    2. Efficiency of filtration system: Ultimately we want a filtration system that will be efficient enough to remove all ammonia and nitrite. An efficient filtration system is one that breaks down 100% of ammonia and nitrite. We have to keep in mind the growing koi and the exponential excretion of wastes. I have always been taught that 33% of total pond volume should be filtration. While filtration systems are more efficient these days, I don't believe that we can always have enough filtration. However, there should be a cutting point...............that point might be Mike's proposal of having a 10,000 gallon pond with 9,000 gallons in filtratin.

    3. Nitrate control: I was taught that the only effective way to remove nitrate is through water changes. Several believe that bog filtration is also a good way to remove nitrate. However, if you look at breeders' holding/finishing facilities, you don't see any bog filtration. Furthermore, to remove nitrate requires a very big bog filter and the dying plants in bog filtration can pollute water and cause it to turn a brownish tint.

    4. Pond TOR: I am an avid believe in rapid pond TOR. The faster the better because (1) it creates lots of current and oxygenation and (2) removes ambient ammonia/nitrite and solids quickly. I believe that a pond should be turned over at least once an hour. Brother David turns his approx 7,000 gallons over once every 15min.

  5. #15
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    If there is a need for 10,000 gallons in filtration...something is amiss in the configuration of the media and/or the currents within the filter chamber. After a molecule of ammonia gets converted to nitrite and seconds later to nitrate, what more will extra piles of media due for water quality? If the ammonia and nitrite is handled by the first piles of media, there is no reason for bacteria to colonize the last piles of media. To me, avoiding channeling in a filter chamber is a key design goal.

    shower or TTs would contain a small fraction of the system at any given moment. Yet due to laminar flow over and through the media, you get nitrogen conversion and degassing.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Lam, as you consider all these things, keep in mind that most breeders rely on the mud pond and have their greenhouse ponds for winter-keeping. The exceptions, such as SFF and Momotaro, have huge concrete ponds for the pampering of relatively few koi being prepared for show. Narita leads the way among dealers in keeping koi for show, and also relies on huge volumes per koi. This emphasis on volume is not simply to dilute ammonia and other contaminants. It provides exercise room for real swimming. Nitrification occurs almost instantly when the ammonia in the water comes in contact with the biofilm. The volume of water in the filters is not the important factor. It is maximizing contact with the biofilm, which does not have to take much volume. Raceway filters relying on mats require more volume than a moving kaldnes filter, which typically contains more water than a shower filter.

    BTW, there is no more a perfect pond design than there is a perfect koi. Everything has compromises.

  7. #17
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike.....there are so many things to think about. Wish there was a simple pond design/plan that I could just use. I definitely don't want to have to rebuild this pond after what I went through with my previous pond. Just want a simple pond that I can enjoy that will be good enough to raise a few good quality gosanke to their potential. Is this too hard to ask?
    Last edited by Lam Nguyen; 02-21-2013 at 11:16 AM.

  8. #18
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen View Post
    Thanks Mike.....there are so many things to think about. Wish there was a simple pond design/plan that I could just use. I definitely don't want to have to rebuild this pond after what I went through with my previous pond. Just want a simple pond that I can enjoy that will be good enough to raise a few good quality gosanke to their potential. Is this too hard to ask?
    Lam your welcome to come over and look at my three ponds I would only build one way now but your welcome

  9. #19
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekoil10000 View Post
    Lam your welcome to come over and look at my three ponds I would only build one way now but your welcome
    Hey Bill, I will take you up no this. Will have to see your 'operation' when you get back into town....................

  10. #20
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hewhoisatpeace View Post
    I'm also of the opinion that K1 and J mat are old technology now.
    Will, Where did your Opinion come from, and what do you think replaces them ? Thanks

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