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Thread: Skin quality, sumi and shiro

  1. #1
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    Skin quality, sumi and shiro

    Hi All

    I am showing some of my koi in a couple of weeks - how do I get the best skin improvement in a short space of time. Any ideas on improving the red? what about the white?Was worried about using the likes of Spirulina due to secondary hi development.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Hi All

    I am showing some of my koi in a couple of weeks - how do I get the best skin improvement in a short space of time. Any ideas on improving the red? what about the white?Was worried about using the likes of Spirulina due to secondary hi development.

    slow feeding to a trickle. use refresh to bring the water quality up ( helps the whites), feed only steamed potato, steamed sweet potato, fresh red pepper and paparika, dried milk, a binder like flour and believe it not canned tuna fish! . the fish oils will trash the water so keep up with small regular water changes.
    remember, we can't make silk purses out sows ears! So make sure you have a good grade of fish-- how do you know what grade it
    is? The skin type mostly. You want a skin that is translucent and absorbs light and also reflects like. This is not a conditioning thing-- this is a genetic thing and a mutation type of skin. You're too far away but for those in the USA, meet me at the next koi show and we'll walk around and identify the three basic skin types at most shows.
    Best of luck at your koi show,Quinton! JR

  3. #3
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    slow feeding to a trickle. use refresh to bring the water quality up ( helps the whites), feed only steamed potato, steamed sweet potato, fresh red pepper and paparika, dried milk, a binder like flour and believe it not canned tuna fish! . the fish oils will trash the water so keep up with small regular water changes.
    remember, we can't make silk purses out sows ears! So make sure you have a good grade of fish-- how do you know what grade it
    is? The skin type mostly. You want a skin that is translucent and absorbs light and also reflects like. This is not a conditioning thing-- this is a genetic thing and a mutation type of skin. You're too far away but for those in the USA, meet me at the next koi show and we'll walk around and identify the three basic skin types at most shows.
    Best of luck at your koi show,Quinton! JR
    Do i blend all of that into a paste? Must the tuna be oil? Can i use brine?

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Do i blend all of that into a paste? Must the tuna be oil? Can i use brine?
    Good morning! There are many formulas and ways to bind home made food. In Japan during the 'raging years' of home made foods, there were one of two basic ways to make the 'glue' to keep it all together. One is a paste that is dough based ( flour,powdered egg, wheat germ, fish meal ect). The other is gelatin based ( knox and orange juice).
    The issue exhibitors face is one of metabolism and physiology. Under normal conditions, everything a fish eats that digested and assimilated will, to a degree, influence the skin which is a natural 'reflection' of diet. Every exhibitor comes to know that environment ( water chemistry and DC content) PLUS fasting, will influence shiroji and beni to the extent of the clarity and uniformity of those colors. Sumi is mostly influenced by general health and oxygen levels.
    BUT fasting to the extreme will also tend to have a fish loose just the slightest volume. Good for health but bad for the show. The starches and ultimately, the sugars of starch will help with that concern. And at the same time, tend to drain the dermis of natural stains. In truth, it will substitute for the normal massive amounts of animal based amino acid groups we tend to pile on our koi with processed foods.

    If you read some of my old articles in KOI USA on home made foods, you will see the details. Not sure if the official website carries articles on sold articles?
    If you are going to follow this formula know that it is the same one that Momotaro uses as he was once a hobbyists and grow out specialist and tapped into the 1980s mania in Japan to grow koi of great volume and of the most conditioned shiroji possible. Some of the smaller breeders also have published the dough based formulas in RINKO and other old publications. Today, most of that is kept quite or abandoned as the world changed to one of buying genetics as a better and more reliable way of possessing great skin. JR

    P.S. a wonderful example of 'piebald expression' in horses and a trait that is obviously passable to offspring.

    Skin quality, sumi and shiro-734323_479992168723238_362960676_n-1-.jpg

  5. #5
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    Thanks JR, very interesting. Is there a risk of secon=dary hi in including peppers and paprika?
    Also is the sweet-potato purely enhancing white?

    Thanks

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Thanks JR, very interesting. Is there a risk of secon=dary hi in including peppers and paprika?
    Also is the sweet-potato purely enhancing white?

    Thanks

    Morning Quinton. Sweet potato is for volume and draining the stains from the shiroji.

    Secondary hi is not from diet, it is a flaw in the coded genetic piebald pattern. In short, each koi has a genetic code for its pattern. this is a mutation that is strengthened and standardized in line bred gosanke. But these are also all recessive mutations and a very strong 'echo' exists in the gene that wants the fish to 'return' to a more wild pattern. So we have the line itself that can 'print' a very strong restricted piebald pattern on the fish. But it is also in a tug of war as to how strong that mutation is within the individual and THEN and overall desire for the gene pool to return all koi back to a wild carp type pattern. JR

  7. #7
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    JR your advice please.
    I have two weeks to go before the show. Some of my fish are not in the best skin condition due to a recent pond rebuild.
    I need to up the hi and shiro - mostly kohakus and sankes. I have sweet potato and paprika - how can i up both? or does an improvement in red negatively effect white?
    Thanks Quinton

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