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Thread: what is oxygen 'at saturation' mean to a koi?

  1. #11
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Can a pond be too oxidative with a routine ORP value that is too high? As I remember years ago Tom Blischock (sp) proposed that around 350mV was starting to get too oxidative for koi in situ. While the organic waste were handled quickly in such a system...the skin quality was starting to show signs of being stressed. As I remember to get ORP up to the 350mV range without oxidizers (PP, O3, ..etc.) you have to have pristine pond, DO at max, and neutral to slightly acidic pH.

    So can ORP be too low or too high for long term optimum koi health? Yes. Like so much in koi keeping, the devil is in the details.
    Not under natural circumstances. PP for instance will rocket the ORP reading-- but that high a reaction will also damage gill filaments. Thom, who I still speak to monthly was performing experiments. Mostly to study Hikkui. he has become one of a few experts in the world on the study of hikkui.
    Point is, I could 'make' ORP read 400 mV. But that is a number. What I want is a balance of reductive reactions overwhelmed by the oxidative reactions so that the 'left over' power of the water still registers as oxidative ( at the very least- 180, 220 better). JR

  2. #12
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    I should mention that another way to gauge water deterioration is mike Snaden's technique of measuring TDS ( Total dissolved solids). It is a very clever quick and dirty way to detect the 'aftermath' of things like ORP. In the practical side of things, its one of those 'good enough' tools for 'getting her done' when it comes to time for a water change. the more laborous route is the testing of oxygen, temperature, pH and ORP. Yet that extra effort actually informs the keeper of the real situation dynamic that leads to the need for a water change. You could for instance, have a falling pH and a falling ORP or a high ORP because your pH is swinging. It could also be because due to low oxygen due to warm water.
    The beauty of a TDS check is that if done in a tight window of readings where you don't let the TDS drift very far away from the ideal ambient reading, then you will be doing 10% changes every seven days and dumping a sump daily. A good practice anyway. JR

  3. #13
    Tategoi hewhoisatpeace's Avatar
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    Back to the oxygen thing, I would think that bacterial oxygen demands would be fulfilled before the fish ever see any. In other words, bacteria is going to get the top 3-5 mg/L dissolved O2, and the koi will have to scavenge the remaining dissolved oxygen from the water. A great reason to have aeration before and after the biological conversion media.

    That sounds good, almost like I know what I'm talking about, but is it true? The concern being when temperature is high and saturation levels drop, the koi (and their oxygen hungry skin) will get less dissolved oxygen. This is the main reason koi look so much better in cooler weather, right?
    Will Schultze
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hewhoisatpeace View Post
    Back to the oxygen thing, I would think that bacterial oxygen demands would be fulfilled before the fish ever see any. In other words, bacteria is going to get the top 3-5 mg/L dissolved O2, and the koi will have to scavenge the remaining dissolved oxygen from the water. A great reason to have aeration before and after the biological conversion media.

    That sounds good, almost like I know what I'm talking about, but is it true? The concern being when temperature is high and saturation levels drop, the koi (and their oxygen hungry skin) will get less dissolved oxygen. This is the main reason koi look so much better in cooler weather, right?
    Hey, you are right about cooler water being better for koi. A koi works most efficiently metabolically speaking, at temps between 58F and 72F. This confuses people who know that their koi are most active at higher temperatures ( 74-80F). That is because they are cold blooded and move more in warmer water than their biological 'sweet spot'.
    The consumption of all living things in your pond from bacteria to fish is happening similtaneously. There is no pecking order. That is why we talka bout two things;
    1) saturation levels at temperature
    2) oxygen demand as a biological reality in a given situation. The BOD test I mentioned is one that will reveal what your natural oxygen consumption is over time.
    JR

  5. #15
    Nisai Benkei's Avatar
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    Any chance there is a chart around for ORP and PH/ temp levels? Just got a meter and can't wait till JR's book comes out (likewise for PPM)

    So, on this topic, I've been wondering about the relative comparison of a water change/ dilution to moderate usage of ozone. Both lower the free floating bacteria count, both effect O2, protein content, PPM etc.Why is moderate ozone usage to increase ORP any worse than a water change?

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benkei View Post
    Any chance there is a chart around for ORP and PH/ temp levels? Just got a meter and can't wait till JR's book comes out (likewise for PPM)

    So, on this topic, I've been wondering about the relative comparison of a water change/ dilution to moderate usage of ozone. Both lower the free floating bacteria count, both effect O2, protein content, PPM etc.Why is moderate ozone usage to increase ORP any worse than a water change?
    Such a chart was published in a koi magazine several years ago.... I think it was Koi Nations?? There have been less comprehensive charts published in Nishikigoi International even further back.

    The fundamental problem with ozone is protection of the fish, the biofilm and equipment from it. It is rather like using chlorine. It is dangerous stuff, not appropriate for most hobbyists to handle, and can do good only if wholly eliminated from the water before the water is introduced into the pond system. Calculate the costs of an independent ozone water treatment system and you will likely conclude that chlorinated tap water is cheaper and easier, less dangerous to people, and so simple to neutralize the chlorine that ozone accomplishes no more at greater risk and greater expense.

  7. #17
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Why is moderate ozone usage to increase ORP any worse than a water change?
    Oxidation via O3, PP, or one of the "..ines" leaves by products....just as fire leaves ash and gases. That oxidation pollution will accumlate. Also without water changes how are the trace minerals and micro nutrients restored to the system? You would not want to keep koi in pure water such as out of a RO unit.

    If a pond system needs O3, PP, or other oxidizer to maintain water quality, perhaps the pond system is out of balance between the load (stocking and feed levels), versus the engine (filtration and aeration).

    The solution to pollution is dilution.

  8. #18
    Nisai cookcpu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    You sound like you are well on your way and kinda 'get' what good water looks like. I always tell hobbyits interested in such things that water is first 'raw' then mellow and eventually stale. the ONLY remedy to this, dispite thousands of products, chemicals and techniques, is the humble water change.
    I've don't conservatively ten thousand water changes in my ponds, aquariums and quarantine systems. And over a fifty year old period I can say with confidence-- they are mandatory, cheap and the very best thing you can do for a closed system. But the art of the water change is the thing-- never too large as that is raw water * not mellow water. 10% a week is better than 30% a month. And 50% a month is reckless and counter productive.
    respect the balance and stability of a pond. A pond also has a life cycle of new, mature and sickly old. Some things to think about. best, JR
    I have noted on your advise on the previous posting in regards to changing small amount of water is better than changing large amount of water. In fact, I have put in practice to change small amount of water weekly and the end result, I notice the koi shine has get better than before.

  9. #19
    Nisai Benkei's Avatar
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    To be clear, I'm not suggesting to cease water changes or even lessen them. I just want to increase ORP. How much do showers/TT work for this?

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benkei View Post
    To be clear, I'm not suggesting to cease water changes or even lessen them. I just want to increase ORP. How much do showers/TT work for this?
    Like getting 'more pregnant' or 'more dead' you can't really get more saturation at temperature ( unless under pressure and that is dangerous). TTs and wet/drys will insure maximum saturation for temperature as long as the biology of the pond is not too well established on organics. JR

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