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Thread: pulling in the thead of a good sweater

  1. #11
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Honestly not heard that word. many Japanese descriptives are adjectives or metaphores for something being used by an individual breeder,sales person or judge. So for pec fins, as example, you can describe them using the term for human hands, or for fish fins or for Japanese fans. No monoply on such descriptions.
    If it is a verb, as in culling vs selecting it would make some sense to use this word--
    My guess on this Japanese word is that it is mean to describe a culling process of a spawn or a removal of a pattern over time.
    Very good sir. Since feudal Japan the common slang for infanticide is 'mabiki', which means to pull plants from an overcrowded garden. A typical method in Japan was to smoother the mouth and nose with a wet paper. This continued into the early 20th century. You talk of the Noble Houses, Japanese culture and all of the good things about Japan- but I never hear say anything critical. Yet- it is common to hear you criticize American Shows and now American judges themselves. I wonder if you could do as as the Japanese have done with mabiki and recognize that cultures change with time and that some customs need to go? What was once right may not be right in this day in age...

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    Very good sir. Since feudal Japan the common slang for infanticide is 'mabiki', which means to pull plants from an overcrowded garden. A typical method in Japan was to smoother the mouth and nose with a wet paper. This continued into the early 20th century. You talk of the Noble Houses, Japanese culture and all of the good things about Japan- but I never hear say anything critical. Yet- it is common to hear you criticize American Shows and now American judges themselves. I wonder if you could do as as the Japanese have done with mabiki and recognize that cultures change with time and that some customs need to go? What was once right may not be right in this day in age...
    Sorry, not sure why you are trying to take a poke at me or why? If you want me to run down the Japanese, I can't as I have no such hatreds to draw from. I'm just quoting history. Southern Americans used to hang black people for just being black and outspoken. yet I lived in Alabama and never met finer people than them. I have Japanese friends and breeder friends and none have ever killed their children or the children of others. What lasts from history past are not people-- they have short lives and die within 80 years or so. Cultures endure. Institutions endure. People come and go.
    The way of judging koi is distinctly a Japanese study/critique for the past 120 years in one form or another. From amateur to professional and then back to amateur again. American judges, of which I am one, have been 'judging' koi and running koi shows for less than 30 years in most cases ( check the number of show anniversary numbers and you'll be surprised how new we really are to this whole game).
    And we have only had world class koi coming into the country for maybe 18 years. So it is a bit arrogant to suggest we 'have it down cold' and its time to make the rules for the country and the world, don't you think?? Don't get me wrong, There is nothing wrong with governing one's self. And starting now, the judging programs in America will become much earier to obtain certification in then ever before. Judging certification can now be accomplished in 24 months with three shadow judging experiences and there are no other requirement other than attending two seminars. This is the future of koi and the level of the bar's reduced set. Mixing the judging so as to please the exhibitor but losing the lesson is a pet peeve of mine- but that's just me. Take heart! I'm very close to retirement and the life of an everyday koi keeper, so my hard view on these things is about to fad away as are others' view and perspective on these things.
    In fact, I'm confident we will have an ochiba as a GC in some show in the future. And possibly sub division awards and 'C' GCs seems likely as an evolutionary way to cope with the shiro issue for the egalitarian. All I'm saying is " brave new world".
    And I'll repeat-- I recognize that in the end, its about having fun, sharing pet fish with one another and drinking with friends. I get that. I really do. Even I'm getting Ok with dumbing down the process and removing the hard work towards judge certification or continuing ed at this point as it is the will of the people within the hobby to be more open, inclusive and tolerant. You'd be surprised to know that the Japanese also think it is time to simplify things and let the local hobbyist express their own version of what makes a koi good. We'll see how it all plays out over the years but I'm hopeful it has the potential to grow the numbers if in no other area then dues paying judges. But all of that is a little 'inside baseball' for this topic. So back to the methods of redoing koi shows as visionaries abound! JR

  3. #13
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    JR I am not taking jabs at you, that's too easy. Besides, you would would have felt it if I had been. Just some thoughts on your 'thread' (pun intended). I tend to speak my mind regardless of who I am speaking to so forgive me if I seems like I am taking a jab at you personally, I am not. I will do this anyone, just ask em...

    I just view your relationship with the ZNA, and as a newcomer to the hobby, I wonder what future involvement I may want to have with the ZNA organization when I hear comments from you like this- "Even I'm getting Ok with dumbing down the process and removing the hard work towards judge certification or continuing ed at this point as it is the will of the people within the hobby to be more open, inclusive and tolerant."

    And really, JR, I just question the direction the hobby is headed in general. Clearly lines have been drawn and it's almost an old school vs modern/progressive mentality. Problem is, if both sides are stubborn enough the hobby loses the history and the culture AND losses the fresh and innovative young hobbyists. I mean face it JR, the old guard is getting older by the day and quite frankly they're dying off. Who's gonna take their place? New, young and excited hobbyist like myself don't want to get involved when they are considered to be "dumbed down". Who's gonna be here in 10, 15- 20 years? Without mentorship and an organization to back the process- much will be lost. We need mentors and leaders. Somehow, somewhere that was lost...And everyone wants to blame everyone else. I want to learn. I want to carry the torch or at least join others towards a future.

    But ya know what JR- I may weave a different sweater than you, because I believe together the threads can align and provide comfort, warmth and future health for the body within it...yet singly the threads are nothing more than a thread- single, weak and will eventually breakdown into nothingness.

  4. #14
    Oyagoi
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    i remember once there was a C group in a nichrin looked like it was for mettallic(do not remember what country or show it was)

    also i like the move ups

    for me i will never win a GC or any big awards my budget does not allow it.so when i go my target is a best in size or variety award
    I always have to travel t any show plus there is 3 of us.so banquet tickets $100 + (still here i wish clubs would do 1/2 price for kids so parent might bring kids to the shows and be involved more)
    $50+ for tank
    couple night stay $100 or so a night times 2 then gas money
    eating "out" money

    so my koi show weekend can wrap up $500

    so go for the people and the chance at a $6 trophy is for me
    if it was more about 1 fish winning alot of the awards then maybe i would stay home ?????

    after all $500 is alot to spend on a weekend i one year i did 4 shows (plus a just under $500 speeding ticket to one of them when all done with it)

    i could go for the bekko award but really hope not to have one in the pond but a bekko is a back up plan for any sanke or tancho sanke i get.

    so are we dumbing down the awards or getting more people involved.
    a bigger show entry means more people are showing bigger show draws more people to the show which can mean more vendors.more vendors makes the people coming to the show even better for them to come.then vendors want to support the show even more.

    take the orlando show.i sit here on computer and just wish i could go saw how many entries and vendors were coming but wrong time of year.daughter not on spring break wife at work has 2 weeks of "fun" always the first 2 weeks of March.so tough for us but next year i hope to hicth hike down with Troy and Chris
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  5. #15
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    JR I am not taking jabs at you, that's too easy. Besides, you would would have felt it if I had been. Just some thoughts on your 'thread' (pun intended). I tend to speak my mind regardless of who I am speaking to so forgive me if I seems like I am taking a jab at you personally, I am not. I will do this anyone, just ask em...

    I just view your relationship with the ZNA, and as a newcomer to the hobby, I wonder what future involvement I may want to have with the ZNA organization when I hear comments from you like this- "Even I'm getting Ok with dumbing down the process and removing the hard work towards judge certification or continuing ed at this point as it is the will of the people within the hobby to be more open, inclusive and tolerant."

    And really, JR, I just question the direction the hobby is headed in general. Clearly lines have been drawn and it's almost an old school vs modern/progressive mentality. Problem is, if both sides are stubborn enough the hobby loses the history and the culture AND losses the fresh and innovative young hobbyists. I mean face it JR, the old guard is getting older by the day and quite frankly they're dying off. Who's gonna take their place? New, young and excited hobbyist like myself don't want to get involved when they are considered to be "dumbed down". Who's gonna be here in 10, 15- 20 years? Without mentorship and an organization to back the process- much will be lost. We need mentors and leaders. Somehow, somewhere that was lost...And everyone wants to blame everyone else. I want to learn. I want to carry the torch or at least join others towards a future.

    But ya know what JR- I may weave a different sweater than you, because I believe together the threads can align and provide comfort, warmth and future health for the body within it...yet singly the threads are nothing more than a thread- single, weak and will eventually breakdown into nothingness.
    well those are some pretty good sentiments and I can't argue with them. you seem to be on the right track so maybe there is hope after all. I'll check back in periodically and see how things are going. Best, JR

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    i remember once there was a C group in a nichrin looked like it was for mettallic(do not remember what country or show it was)

    also i like the move ups

    for me i will never win a GC or any big awards my budget does not allow it.so when i go my target is a best in size or variety award
    I always have to travel t any show plus there is 3 of us.so banquet tickets $100 + (still here i wish clubs would do 1/2 price for kids so parent might bring kids to the shows and be involved more)
    $50+ for tank
    couple night stay $100 or so a night times 2 then gas money
    eating "out" money

    so my koi show weekend can wrap up $500

    so go for the people and the chance at a $6 trophy is for me
    if it was more about 1 fish winning alot of the awards then maybe i would stay home ?????

    after all $500 is alot to spend on a weekend i one year i did 4 shows (plus a just under $500 speeding ticket to one of them when all done with it)

    i could go for the bekko award but really hope not to have one in the pond but a bekko is a back up plan for any sanke or tancho sanke i get.

    so are we dumbing down the awards or getting more people involved.
    a bigger show entry means more people are showing bigger show draws more people to the show which can mean more vendors.more vendors makes the people coming to the show even better for them to come.then vendors want to support the show even more.

    take the orlando show.i sit here on computer and just wish i could go saw how many entries and vendors were coming but wrong time of year.daughter not on spring break wife at work has 2 weeks of "fun" always the first 2 weeks of March.so tough for us but next year i hope to hicth hike down with Troy and Chris

    I always looked to the kawari group as an exciting 'bull pen' of B style fish. Not blessed with made made genetic manipulation. But rather natural mutation made stronger. hyper Black fish with the white spreading gene and others of basic color mutation. Very cool C group? And one can buy a world class kumonryu for very little yen. I saw some for sale in Japan for $15 each! And jumbo soragoi two year olds for 150 each. JR

  7. #17
    Daihonmei
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    Appliance guy makes a good point when he talks about the old guard and how the time may have come to turn over the reins to the new generation. I think that makes sense and as a guy who never had 'founder disease' I think about my own personal exit from the active side of the hobby regularly these days. But should it be based on age and click association or on ability to contribute? Should anyone who reaches the age 65 for instance, be banned from holding office or judging koi shows? I know for instance that judges begin missing things at a certain age and in some of the organizations there is a mandatory retirement age at 70. This is not very 'American' however and we never ask anyone to hang up their judging hat. I'm a member of the old guard no doubt. But I do feel I have much to offer the 'youngsters' entering the hobby. And I always chuckle when fellow hobbyists years older than myself suggest that I should retire 'as its time' !
    The truth is at age 61, I'm one of the younger 'old guard'. But old guard I am. I see young leaders rising and also excellent judge potential-- but they are rare in numbers and still a bit green from my perspective ( after all we are talking about these misfires in shows in this thread). I've always said that I would retire when it wasn't fun any more and when politics made me radio active enough to be completely ineffective. Is that a geiger counter I hear buzzing in the back ground? LOLs
    The point I'm making here is that retirment is not about age as it is able ability to contribute and politcial damage accrued. Other things take their toll such as gossip and betrayal but lets not make this all about drama. Intellectually speaking, we all have our time in a hobby. During that time we can contribute and give our time and treasure to a cause or a tradition. When that time has passed, a person of 61 or 81 has to have the good sense to bring in replacements and fad gracefully into the back ground. Long live youth and energy! JR

  8. #18
    Jumbo HenryC's Avatar
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    I have wondered why some people have such an issue with the Champion B award. It is just one award and in no way belittles the Grand Champion or Reserve Champion awards at a show. The Champion B award has been a great way to get hobbyists to bring their quality non-gosanke Koi to the shows. Until the award started, a hobbyist with a high quality Shiro Utsuri, GinRin, Asagi and this last weekend, Shusui, had no good incentive to bring those excellent examples of the variety to a show. Since starting the award, we have seen many great representations of non-gosanke. I have also seen several hobbyists become “energized” by winning that award and become a very active part of the show team.

    As far as the comment that becoming a judge in America has been dumbed down seems to be based on lack of knowledge as well as a little bit of sour grapes. Both the American Koi Judges Association (AKJAonline.org) and AKCA have great training programs. Both require a candidate to prove basic knowledge prior to entering the training program. The training program consists of at least 2 years of candidate judging along with certified judges which includes reviews after each judging assignment. They also require attending judging seminars each year which are a full weekend packed with training sessions and presentations by the candidates. Most candidate judges have judged between 10 and 15 shows prior to becoming a certified judge. Candidate judges must then pass a difficult written and oral exam prior to being certified. The requirements to be become a ZNA judge are the same as they have always been. To become a Local Certified Judge (LCJ), you must be a member in good standing in a ZNA club for at least 5 years, judged at least 5 shows, or judge 3 shows and attend 2 ZNA judging seminars and have the recommendation of their club president. Every ZNA LCJ in America went through that same process, except they also had to jump through the political hoop of the US District Chair letting them become a judge. That last requirement was never supposed to be in place and was recently clarified by ZNA Japan (thus the tone of sour grapes in the comment about “dumbing down” judging in America). ZNA has three levels of judge certification and LCJ is considered similar to a candidate judge in AKJA and AKCA (as explained by ZNA Japan). A LCJ is expected to continue their training and after meeting the qualifications, go to Japan and be tested to be become Assistant Certified and evently Fully Certified.
    Henry

    Orlando, FL

  9. #19
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Bekko is quite simplythe single most prestigious award at a show. The few number of entries is witness to the difficulty in finding and testimony to the challenge of finishing this rare (and coveted) variety. At CFKS I win Best in Variety Bekko every year. If somebody can beat me come and do it, until then I can only regard negative comments as bekko envy!

    And while I am surveying the state koi from this lofty perch I offer this perspective from the mountain top. All this talk of “Egalitarianism” or “Balkanization” is just so much BS. The new national organization, the Koi Society, is not on the decline it is clearly very much in the ascendant. Koi, as the Japanese repeatedly emphasize, are about joy, and as our friend David would say, koi are about“affiliation”. Nothing wrong with elite koi, they are our shared passion. But there is everything wrong with the elitist actions of those few individuals who were entrusted with carrying the banner of American Koi and instead tried to strangle us with it. They have made themselves irrelevant. It has nothing to do with age and everything to do with actions.

    Also for what it is worth: clearly gosanke do not carry the most mutations. This is very easily seen in a long fin yamato nishiki for example. A metallic longfin sanke carries all of the sanke mutations plus the two obvious ones of metallic skin and long fins. The refinement of gosanke actually includes backcrosses with asagi to lessen inbreeding, with magoi for length, and with doistu and longfin for body. Undoubtedly the accumulated mutations in gosanke are considerable in number, but the notion that gosanke have the most mutations or are line bred for 100 years do not bear examination.
    MCA and hewhoisatpeace like this.

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Bekko is quite simplythe single most prestigious award at a show. The few number of entries is witness to the difficulty in finding and testimony to the challenge of finishing this rare (and coveted) variety. At CFKS I win Best in Variety Bekko every year. If somebody can beat me come and do it, until then I can only regard negative comments as bekko envy!

    And while I am surveying the state koi from this lofty perch I offer this perspective from the mountain top. All this talk of “Egalitarianism” or “Balkanization” is just so much BS. The new national organization, the Koi Society, is not on the decline it is clearly very much in the ascendant. Koi, as the Japanese repeatedly emphasize, are about joy, and as our friend David would say, koi are about“affiliation”. Nothing wrong with elite koi, they are our shared passion. But there is everything wrong with the elitist actions of those few individuals who were entrusted with carrying the banner of American Koi and instead tried to strangle us with it. They have made themselves irrelevant. It has nothing to do with age and everything to do with actions.

    Also for what it is worth: clearly gosanke do not carry the most mutations. This is very easily seen in a long fin yamato nishiki for example. A metallic longfin sanke carries all of the sanke mutations plus the two obvious ones of metallic skin and long fins. The refinement of gosanke actually includes backcrosses with asagi to lessen inbreeding, with magoi for length, and with doistu and longfin for body. Undoubtedly the accumulated mutations in gosanke are considerable in number, but the notion that gosanke have the most mutations or are line bred for 100 years do not bear examination.


    all right guys, I get it, I'm gone. JR
    kirkabilly! likes this.

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