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Thread: pulling in the thead of a good sweater

  1. #21
    Daihonmei
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    all right guys, I get it, I'm gone.
    But for those long term ZNA members who supported the idea of an independent district, refer to your orange books which is a rewrite of the ZNA newletter published from 1996 to 2006. The orange book is a direct rewrite of the USA rules voted in by the 8 duly elected Presidents of the 8 ZNA chapters of the day. In that series of votes pasted and during the meeting of 1996 in which the USA was granted the district powers over its region- the only other 'district outside Japan', ( Kato San and the Executive committtee at the time) we improved our requirements above and beyond the single international chapter requirements. It should also be noted that many countries have their requirements placed before entry into the ZNA programs. There a person must become a national judge before a ZNA judge. And move thru a complicated National and international blended program. Its actually MORE demanding than ours in many ways.
    It should also be pointed out that in the old days every time there was a dust up in chapters, members rushed to Japan for a ruling. Soon Japan tired of this and wanted districts to handle problem candidates and political issues internally. Interesting enough and under the topic of everything old is new again, AKCA was partly formed as Americans felt the Japanese judges of ZNA were looking down on them as local judges and wanted their own program rules and treatment. Which is why we had a need for our new born district in the first place. it was not easy to secure this and many battles resulted. I recall Goforth battling Kato in the confines of a moving car! That was intense!! But we came to an understanding.
    During the 12 years of the second District chairman (I was special advisor and lieutenant to that chairman), and into my service of the past 3 years, we brought to a democratic vote each and every rule or change in the judging program. Many of these things were for practical reasons (such as how many judges could be certified and expect to work regularly) or qualification reasons (three shadow judging’s and sitting in two seminars was simply not enough even to keep up with and be respected by the AKCA program).
    ZNA judges were known to be very serious students of koi and very experienced in judging shows. Another problem we had was dealers starting chapters or becoming judges and doing business. We created rules for that as well. Rules that don't exist in Japan ( so is it Ok for a pond builder to be a judge? wasn't yesterday but with no district rule, it will be tomorrow-- just fill out the form on the website, do three shows and two seminars ( you can double dip by the way because now anyone can shadow judge a show and do to a seminar and get two credits done! two shows and two seminars and just one to go and you are a judge for life. Sound like a good idea to you?)
    During those 17 annual meetings of the 1990s and early 2000s, we created rules as in addition to the basic.
    1) 5 shows (one allowed in your own chapter and 2 overseas).
    2) 2 seminars ( can be waived by the five shows based on head judge feedback, but encouraged) and One seminar every two years
    3) One show judged every two years
    4) Recommended as a good supporter of ZNA by District chairman
    5) Willingness to travel when asked
    6) Later I put up for consideration, a continuing education program
    7) Lastly specific topics of study for each level of trainee over five shows for those currently in the program ( not voted on yet)
    ALL of the current judges have done five ZNA shows. All but one. The current members in the program are eagerly cooperating with the requirement- none have gone crying to Japan to make it easier until now.
    But all that voting of the past 16 years has now been overturned and we will proceed to dissolve ZNA district in favor of the easier standard and direct rule from Beppu. That is all I’m saying here- it is dumbed down now compared to what the rest of us did to get certification. These things can be found in your ZNA newsletters or the orange book. ( and as another correction the assistant judging test used to be far more demanding than it is today, so the trend is disturbing to the old guard).
    If you read your newsletters or your orange book, Understand that the Japanese rules are there as a minimum requirement and subsequent pages are votes over the years that increased the program from three shadow judgings and two official seminars to something more serious and more rigorous. I had little to do with all that other than one vote out of 8.
    If you take the shadow judging requirement for instance, we don’t want someone to just stand behind a Japanese judge for three shows separated by a language barrier. We would like involvement and a specific subject to be discussed with the head judge as a true mentor/mentee experience. 5 shows under an English speaking experienced mentor is the thing—as it exists in Japan for locals there.
    Now this might be seen as too demanding or too strenuous to some? That leaves me cold. And so I am ending my association with Japan and with ZNA. But I will always be a member of Kuroki’s ZNA. If that makes me ‘old guard’ I wear the designation proudly.
    I’m leaving this website because life is too short for this. We will discuss the end of the district at the annual meeting and say goodbye to an amazing era of koi in American. Brave new world. JR

  2. #22
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Bekko is quite simplythe single most prestigious award at a show. The few number of entries is witness to the difficulty in finding and testimony to the challenge of finishing this rare (and coveted) variety. At CFKS I win Best in Variety Bekko every year. If somebody can beat me come and do it, until then I can only regard negative comments as bekko envy!
    How can Bekko (or any other class) that only has one or two entries be prestigious?

    I am much more impressed when somebody wins in size 2 Kohaku against 6 - 8 entries.

    BTW: I too once "won" a Bekko class with only my Ki Bekko entered.

  3. #23
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Appliance guy makes a good point when he talks about the old guard and how the time may have come to turn over the reins to the new generation. I think that makes sense and as a guy who never had 'founder disease' I think about my own personal exit from the active side of the hobby regularly these days. But should it be based on age and click association or on ability to contribute? Should anyone who reaches the age 65 for instance, be banned from holding office or judging koi shows? I know for instance that judges begin missing things at a certain age and in some of the organizations there is a mandatory retirement age at 70. This is not very 'American' however and we never ask anyone to hang up their judging hat. I'm a member of the old guard no doubt. But I do feel I have much to offer the 'youngsters' entering the hobby. And I always chuckle when fellow hobbyists years older than myself suggest that I should retire 'as its time' !
    The truth is at age 61, I'm one of the younger 'old guard'. But old guard I am. I see young leaders rising and also excellent judge potential-- but they are rare in numbers and still a bit green from my perspective ( after all we are talking about these misfires in shows in this thread). I've always said that I would retire when it wasn't fun any more and when politics made me radio active enough to be completely ineffective. Is that a geiger counter I hear buzzing in the back ground? LOLs
    The point I'm making here is that retirment is not about age as it is able ability to contribute and politcial damage accrued. Other things take their toll such as gossip and betrayal but lets not make this all about drama. Intellectually speaking, we all have our time in a hobby. During that time we can contribute and give our time and treasure to a cause or a tradition. When that time has passed, a person of 61 or 81 has to have the good sense to bring in replacements and fad gracefully into the back ground. Long live youth and energy! JR
    There are plenty of "young guys" that understand and respect the ZNA way. Someday Appliance guy will mellow and accept some of it. I doubt that we will ever see a Yamabuki Ogon or a Long Fin win Grand Champion.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    all right guys, I get it, I'm gone.
    But for those long term ZNA members who supported the idea of an independent district, refer to your orange books which is a rewrite of the ZNA newletter published from 1996 to 2006. The orange book is a direct rewrite of the USA rules voted in by the 8 duly elected Presidents of the 8 ZNA chapters of the day. In that series of votes pasted and during the meeting of 1996 in which the USA was granted the district powers over its region- the only other 'district outside Japan', ( Kato San and the Executive committtee at the time) we improved our requirements above and beyond the single international chapter requirements. It should also be noted that many countries have their requirements placed before entry into the ZNA programs. There a person must become a national judge before a ZNA judge. And move thru a complicated National and international blended program. Its actually MORE demanding than ours in many ways.
    It should also be pointed out that in the old days every time there was a dust up in chapters, members rushed to Japan for a ruling. Soon Japan tired of this and wanted districts to handle problem candidates and political issues internally. Interesting enough and under the topic of everything old is new again, AKCA was partly formed as Americans felt the Japanese judges of ZNA were looking down on them as local judges and wanted their own program rules and treatment. Which is why we had a need for our new born district in the first place. it was not easy to secure this and many battles resulted. I recall Goforth battling Kato in the confines of a moving car! That was intense!! But we came to an understanding.
    During the 12 years of the second District chairman (I was special advisor and lieutenant to that chairman), and into my service of the past 3 years, we brought to a democratic vote each and every rule or change in the judging program. Many of these things were for practical reasons (such as how many judges could be certified and expect to work regularly) or qualification reasons (three shadow judging’s and sitting in two seminars was simply not enough even to keep up with and be respected by the AKCA program).
    ZNA judges were known to be very serious students of koi and very experienced in judging shows. Another problem we had was dealers starting chapters or becoming judges and doing business. We created rules for that as well. Rules that don't exist in Japan ( so is it Ok for a pond builder to be a judge? wasn't yesterday but with no district rule, it will be tomorrow-- just fill out the form on the website, do three shows and two seminars ( you can double dip by the way because now anyone can shadow judge a show and do to a seminar and get two credits done! two shows and two seminars and just one to go and you are a judge for life. Sound like a good idea to you?)
    During those 17 annual meetings of the 1990s and early 2000s, we created rules as in addition to the basic.
    1) 5 shows (one allowed in your own chapter and 2 overseas).
    2) 2 seminars ( can be waived by the five shows based on head judge feedback, but encouraged) and One seminar every two years
    3) One show judged every two years
    4) Recommended as a good supporter of ZNA by District chairman
    5) Willingness to travel when asked
    6) Later I put up for consideration, a continuing education program
    7) Lastly specific topics of study for each level of trainee over five shows for those currently in the program ( not voted on yet)
    ALL of the current judges have done five ZNA shows. All but one. The current members in the program are eagerly cooperating with the requirement- none have gone crying to Japan to make it easier until now.
    But all that voting of the past 16 years has now been overturned and we will proceed to dissolve ZNA district in favor of the easier standard and direct rule from Beppu. That is all I’m saying here- it is dumbed down now compared to what the rest of us did to get certification. These things can be found in your ZNA newsletters or the orange book. ( and as another correction the assistant judging test used to be far more demanding than it is today, so the trend is disturbing to the old guard).
    If you read your newsletters or your orange book, Understand that the Japanese rules are there as a minimum requirement and subsequent pages are votes over the years that increased the program from three shadow judgings and two official seminars to something more serious and more rigorous. I had little to do with all that other than one vote out of 8.
    If you take the shadow judging requirement for instance, we don’t want someone to just stand behind a Japanese judge for three shows separated by a language barrier. We would like involvement and a specific subject to be discussed with the head judge as a true mentor/mentee experience. 5 shows under an English speaking experienced mentor is the thing—as it exists in Japan for locals there.
    Now this might be seen as too demanding or too strenuous to some? That leaves me cold. And so I am ending my association with Japan and with ZNA. But I will always be a member of Kuroki’s ZNA. If that makes me ‘old guard’ I wear the designation proudly.
    I’m leaving this website because life is too short for this. We will discuss the end of the district at the annual meeting and say goodbye to an amazing era of koi in American. Brave new world. JR
    Well just damn...

  5. #25
    Nisai MikeS's Avatar
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    I'm sure this will be a great loss to the Hobby James, hopefully you will reconsider, if not it is understood. It is difficult to watch something you helped found go through changes. I truly think that in our current society, keeping things pure is the most difficult task of all.

  6. #26
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Remember; Koi Bito is a forum for "Straight from Japan... For the Serious Hobbyist!"

  7. #27
    Tategoi Louie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Remember; Koi Bito is a forum for "Straight from Japan... For the Serious Hobbyist!"

    When you water down the wine its never as good. Be carefull what you wish for it could come back to bite
    you. I wonder who the genius was that determined the age when a person is usefull to the hobby
    I for one think that is nonsence. Wisedom only comes with age and experiance. some of these youngsters have not paid their dues to this hobby but, yet feel that they are ready to carry the weight. What will they say of their leaders now when they reach that age ? JR. has proven his selve in worth to most of us How many more will they throw under the bus to reach their goals. I too met Dr. Kuroki I too am a member of the old guard and proud of it. Beware if you are passed 60 [grin ] Agenda`s and egoes can destroy this hobby
    and that is what i see in todays world. Please read this and think of all that has gone on for many monthes and if you feel as I do then stand up and be counted . We are at a crossroad . Friendship Thru Koi
    Louie
    azngopher and ricshaw like this.

  8. #28
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    all right guys, I get it, I'm gone.
    But for those long term ZNA members who supported the idea of an independent district, refer to your orange books which is a rewrite of the ZNA newletter published from 1996 to 2006. The orange book is a direct rewrite of the USA rules voted in by the 8 duly elected Presidents of the 8 ZNA chapters of the day. In that series of votes pasted and during the meeting of 1996 in which the USA was granted the district powers over its region- the only other 'district outside Japan', ( Kato San and the Executive committtee at the time) we improved our requirements above and beyond the single international chapter requirements. It should also be noted that many countries have their requirements placed before entry into the ZNA programs. There a person must become a national judge before a ZNA judge. And move thru a complicated National and international blended program. Its actually MORE demanding than ours in many ways.
    It should also be pointed out that in the old days every time there was a dust up in chapters, members rushed to Japan for a ruling. Soon Japan tired of this and wanted districts to handle problem candidates and political issues internally. Interesting enough and under the topic of everything old is new again, AKCA was partly formed as Americans felt the Japanese judges of ZNA were looking down on them as local judges and wanted their own program rules and treatment. Which is why we had a need for our new born district in the first place. it was not easy to secure this and many battles resulted. I recall Goforth battling Kato in the confines of a moving car! That was intense!! But we came to an understanding.
    During the 12 years of the second District chairman (I was special advisor and lieutenant to that chairman), and into my service of the past 3 years, we brought to a democratic vote each and every rule or change in the judging program. Many of these things were for practical reasons (such as how many judges could be certified and expect to work regularly) or qualification reasons (three shadow judging’s and sitting in two seminars was simply not enough even to keep up with and be respected by the AKCA program).
    ZNA judges were known to be very serious students of koi and very experienced in judging shows. Another problem we had was dealers starting chapters or becoming judges and doing business. We created rules for that as well. Rules that don't exist in Japan ( so is it Ok for a pond builder to be a judge? wasn't yesterday but with no district rule, it will be tomorrow-- just fill out the form on the website, do three shows and two seminars ( you can double dip by the way because now anyone can shadow judge a show and do to a seminar and get two credits done! two shows and two seminars and just one to go and you are a judge for life. Sound like a good idea to you?)
    During those 17 annual meetings of the 1990s and early 2000s, we created rules as in addition to the basic.
    1) 5 shows (one allowed in your own chapter and 2 overseas).
    2) 2 seminars ( can be waived by the five shows based on head judge feedback, but encouraged) and One seminar every two years
    3) One show judged every two years
    4) Recommended as a good supporter of ZNA by District chairman
    5) Willingness to travel when asked
    6) Later I put up for consideration, a continuing education program
    7) Lastly specific topics of study for each level of trainee over five shows for those currently in the program ( not voted on yet)
    ALL of the current judges have done five ZNA shows. All but one. The current members in the program are eagerly cooperating with the requirement- none have gone crying to Japan to make it easier until now.
    But all that voting of the past 16 years has now been overturned and we will proceed to dissolve ZNA district in favor of the easier standard and direct rule from Beppu. That is all I’m saying here- it is dumbed down now compared to what the rest of us did to get certification. These things can be found in your ZNA newsletters or the orange book. ( and as another correction the assistant judging test used to be far more demanding than it is today, so the trend is disturbing to the old guard).
    If you read your newsletters or your orange book, Understand that the Japanese rules are there as a minimum requirement and subsequent pages are votes over the years that increased the program from three shadow judgings and two official seminars to something more serious and more rigorous. I had little to do with all that other than one vote out of 8.
    If you take the shadow judging requirement for instance, we don’t want someone to just stand behind a Japanese judge for three shows separated by a language barrier. We would like involvement and a specific subject to be discussed with the head judge as a true mentor/mentee experience. 5 shows under an English speaking experienced mentor is the thing—as it exists in Japan for locals there.
    Now this might be seen as too demanding or too strenuous to some? That leaves me cold. And so I am ending my association with Japan and with ZNA. But I will always be a member of Kuroki’s ZNA. If that makes me ‘old guard’ I wear the designation proudly.
    I’m leaving this website because life is too short for this. We will discuss the end of the district at the annual meeting and say goodbye to an amazing era of koi in American. Brave new world. JR
    One mention of koi. The rest is all about JR and what he's done. Sounds like a bitter employee rather than an educator. Sorry JR, but this position does not come with pay, you do it for the love of the koi and the hobby. Somewhere along the road this was lost, and now you feel you are owed or deserve something more than what you were given.

    My father is a trauma surgeon. For 35 years he saved lives because that's what he enjoyed. He didn't do it for the money. He didn't do it for the praise. He didn't do it to fill his ego. He did it because he loved helping others. The lesson for me is to do something I love and I am passionate about, not for money or praise...When the love is gone JR, it is time to go. Is the love of the koi gone? If so I understand, that's part of life. But I must say the hobby is not a better place without you involved, clearly we have much to learn from you...Will I ask, or beg or plead for you to remain active- nah, I agree with you- Life is too short for that. If you want to go that's fine, I understand. Just know that the hobby will still be here with or without you.

    A classic line from the movie "The Breakfast Club" when Carl the janitor is talking to Vernon the principal- "The kids haven't changed Vernon, it's you that changed."

  9. #29
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Brazoria County, Texas
    Posts
    1,044

    Long time

    I have not posted here, literally in several years. Many of you may have no idea who I am. That matters not. What does matter is the sorry state of affairs of the koi hobby in the US and the exclusivley poor treatment of your ZNA leadership for the last decade and a half. These two men (and the one that preceeded them) have given of themselves more than anybody can ever know or even imagine. They have worked tirelessly to see to it that not only does the koi hobby grow, it does so with integrity. Yet these strong men, giving men, dedicated men have been repeatedly and repeatedly abused, denigrated privately and publicly, tried to be forced into positions of no integrity, and basically been driven out of the hobby.

    Me, I was a breeder and was in it at least partially for the money, so I don't care much that I too was taken advantage of and abused as well. But these guys, they had to be abused and PAY for the privilege as VOLUNTEERS.

    I know there are many, many very good and deserving people in this hobby. It is a damn shame that they must suffer in ignorance because some of you abused your teachers to the point of driving them away. You managed to git rid of Goforth, and now you've done in Reilly, I hope to God yall responsible for this are proud of yourselves, you have driven the koi hobby not only backward 20 years, you have removed ALL SEMBLANCE of propriety and integrity from it. The result will ultimately be, already is, your continued ignorance.

    I've had my say, now I will go back to my business of managing my BASS farm and taking care of other people's koi.

    Brett Rowley
    Fisheries Biologist
    Owner: Brett's Fish Farm and The Good Luck Fishing and Hunting Club
    Brett

  10. #30
    Tategoi hewhoisatpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie View Post
    When you water down the wine its never as good. Be carefull what you wish for it could come back to bite
    you. I wonder who the genius was that determined the age when a person is usefull to the hobby
    I for one think that is nonsence. Wisedom only comes with age and experiance. some of these youngsters have not paid their dues to this hobby but, yet feel that they are ready to carry the weight. What will they say of their leaders now when they reach that age ? JR. has proven his selve in worth to most of us How many more will they throw under the bus to reach their goals. I too met Dr. Kuroki I too am a member of the old guard and proud of it. Beware if you are passed 60 [grin ] Agenda`s and egoes can destroy this hobby
    and that is what i see in todays world. Please read this and think of all that has gone on for many monthes and if you feel as I do then stand up and be counted . We are at a crossroad . Friendship Thru Koi
    Louie
    Hi, Louie.

    I'm not picking sides here, really don't wish to be politically involved, but at least in this venue, did anyone mention age as a limiting factor? I mean, besides JR? I'm asking honestly, because I don't understand the statement. What kind of an idiot says that people past 60 are not valuable? I think someone has misinterpreted something somewhere. Could be me.

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