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Thread: pulling in the thead of a good sweater

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    pulling in the thead of a good sweater

    ever have an expensive sweater with a thread appearing in the sleeve? It seems like a simple thing- just pull it out and fix it! But what a mistake-- it turns out that the simple solution is connected to an entire fabric of direction and support. Once out, the area becomes the site of untold problems. Unravel is a word that comes to mind.
    My friends on this board know how I shake my head everytime I see the koi show 'reinvented'. And my particular pet peeve of the past five years or so is the idea of a 'B' champion. I certainly cooperate when I'm asked to judge a show that way- when in Rome speak like a Roman! But early on, I realized that the lesson of shiro Utsuri becoming a 'gosanke" ( Big Three) was both mathamatically incorrect and intellectually flawed.

    I fully understand the intent to honor the much improved shiro. And I'm often reminded by enthusiastic chairmen and women that besides the shiroji ground, the sumi on shiro is much better than hi utsuri. yep that much is true. But Gosanke are based in not only sumi. They are carriers and demonstrators of the refinement of beni. beni is a cornerstone of nishikigoi development and is desplayed most in kohaku and sanke and now in showa.
    The irony and unintended consequence of creating an A & B level of equal GCs is that for 5-8 years, shiro was dominate and owned B GC. To make it even more egalitarian shiro is now moved to A with the big three. this now punishes shiro! First raised to a shoe in GC and now guaranteed to be an 'also ran'! Perhaps a GC 'C' would be the next egalitarian move? It would likely be a fish chosen from Kawari as they are always the low varieties on the totem pole? Brave new world. JR

  2. #2
    MCA
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    Gosake in Nishikigoi refers to the three noble houses of kohaku, snake, and showa. The historical reference is to the 3 branches of the Tokogawa Shogunate. While Tokugawa Ieyasu and many sons and grandsons, only 3 branches of the family were designated to supply future Shoguns.

    To keep true to the historical reference of Gosanke, we need to stick to having 3 noble houses.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Gosake in Nishikigoi refers to the three noble houses of kohaku, snake, and showa. The historical reference is to the 3 branches of the Tokogawa Shogunate. While Tokugawa Ieyasu and many sons and grandsons, only 3 branches of the family were designated to supply future Shoguns.

    To keep true to the historical reference of Gosanke, we need to stick to having 3 noble houses.
    Amen brother! And when you tie in that origin to the genetics of the nishikigoi one begins to understand WHY they are called GoSanake. the three houses you refer to were FAMILIES linked under the first shoguns and were met to be the line that future leaders would arise from should the first family die out. It was also a way to spread the top role to close intermarried individuals and male children.

    KOI's future in terms of quality, color type and actual skin type, is held within the only line bred varieties in existance-- the kohaku, Sanke and showa. they possess all the elements that are injected into other branches of the nishikigoi clan. Remember, once isolated, a gene pool is unique and can never be exactly the same as it was before the isolation. Crossing the 'royals' back into other nsihikigoi varieties gives then traits of the royals-- but it does not make the same as the royals. Kinda like the old expression, " I thought you all you know, but not all I know".

    This is heady stuff and not for the casual hobbyist that are content with koi lite internet type information. No 'shot intended'! This level of understanding is not for everyone. My only concern is that as our organizations fragment and decline that the core truths are not lost.
    In the near future one such organization will reduce the requirements for being a koi judge and staying a koi judge. Everyone and any one can now apply. This is very egalitarian ( my favorite word today, it seems ) . I pray we can survive this event but it could be a good thing for solving the problem of available judges. Still, no one is required to judge shows any more under these rules, so many will become judges for the plaque on the wall and not want to spend $3000 a year on travel and learning? Not sure but I support the organization albeit not its reduction of the quality of judges.

    Brave new world, JR

  4. #4
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    JR- ever heard of the Japanese word 'mabiki'?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    JR- ever heard of the Japanese word 'mabiki'?
    Honestly not heard that word. many Japanese descriptives are adjectives or metaphores for something being used by an individual breeder,sales person or judge. So for pec fins, as example, you can describe them using the term for human hands, or for fish fins or for Japanese fans. No monoply on such descriptions.
    If it is a verb, as in culling vs selecting it would make some sense to use this word--
    My guess on this Japanese word is that it is mean to describe a culling process of a spawn or a removal of a pattern over time.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    ever have an expensive sweater with a thread appearing in the sleeve? It seems like a simple thing- just pull it out and fix it! But what a mistake-- it turns out that the simple solution is connected to an entire fabric of direction and support. Once out, the area becomes the site of untold problems. Unravel is a word that comes to mind.
    My friends on this board know how I shake my head everytime I see the koi show 'reinvented'. And my particular pet peeve of the past five years or so is the idea of a 'B' champion. I certainly cooperate when I'm asked to judge a show that way- when in Rome speak like a Roman! But early on, I realized that the lesson of shiro Utsuri becoming a 'gosanke" ( Big Three) was both mathamatically incorrect and intellectually flawed.

    I fully understand the intent to honor the much improved shiro. And I'm often reminded by enthusiastic chairmen and women that besides the shiroji ground, the sumi on shiro is much better than hi utsuri. yep that much is true. But Gosanke are based in not only sumi. They are carriers and demonstrators of the refinement of beni. beni is a cornerstone of nishikigoi development and is desplayed most in kohaku and sanke and now in showa.
    The irony and unintended consequence of creating an A & B level of equal GCs is that for 5-8 years, shiro was dominate and owned B GC. To make it even more egalitarian shiro is now moved to A with the big three. this now punishes shiro! First raised to a shoe in GC and now guaranteed to be an 'also ran'! Perhaps a GC 'C' would be the next egalitarian move? It would likely be a fish chosen from Kawari as they are always the low varieties on the totem pole? Brave new world. JR
    For the same reasons, I disagree with the move-up system as a whole, but that it too radical for any show to consider.

    At CFKS 2013 the egalitarian trend resulted in Shiro Utsuri being placed in its own varietal class. The remaining utsurimono went into 'Other Utsuri'. There were a couple of Hi Utsuri in the show, so one took home a class award. I think there were as many Shiro Bekko entered. These are now two varieties that one can purchase very inexpensively and have a decent chance of winning an award that cost as much as, or more than, the fish. There is a degree of silliness in it, but perhaps not more so than giving out awards for 'most unique', 'jumbo', 'best male' and the like. More bothersome to me is giving a 'best Kohaku' or other class award to a fish that was not the best in the class. A little truth in nomenclature would make it: 'best of those not deserving of anything better award'. Folks might not get too excited about that label, but it is what the award represents under the move-up system.

    I do not believe the class/variety awards do much to motivate folks to enter a particular variety in a show. If they did, there would be more Shiro Bekko entered in all the shows. But, if awards did encourage entries, we could be very practical and give every entry an award. Then we could limit the cost of awards to the amount of the entry fee. Show finances would be under control and supposedly participation would skyrocket. ...I don't think so. Proliferation of awards cheapens the meaning. And, it is what an award represents that motivates entries, not the award itself.

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    For the same reasons, I disagree with the move-up system as a whole, but that it too radical for any show to consider.

    At CFKS 2013 the egalitarian trend resulted in Shiro Utsuri being placed in its own varietal class. The remaining utsurimono went into 'Other Utsuri'. There were a couple of Hi Utsuri in the show, so one took home a class award. I think there were as many Shiro Bekko entered. These are now two varieties that one can purchase very inexpensively and have a decent chance of winning an award that cost as much as, or more than, the fish. There is a degree of silliness in it, but perhaps not more so than giving out awards for 'most unique', 'jumbo', 'best male' and the like. More bothersome to me is giving a 'best Kohaku' or other class award to a fish that was not the best in the class. A little truth in nomenclature would make it: 'best of those not deserving of anything better award'. Folks might not get too excited about that label, but it is what the award represents under the move-up system.

    I do not believe the class/variety awards do much to motivate folks to enter a particular variety in a show. If they did, there would be more Shiro Bekko entered in all the shows. But, if awards did encourage entries, we could be very practical and give every entry an award. Then we could limit the cost of awards to the amount of the entry fee. Show finances would be under control and supposedly participation would skyrocket. ...I don't think so. Proliferation of awards cheapens the meaning. And, it is what an award represents that motivates entries, not the award itself.
    I understand. As I hopefully hinted at if not said-- when we place ourselves above the tradition and learned lessons something is lost. But its only a hobby so we need to think good thoughts and roll with the huberous of new visions. Brave new world. In the end, it is about the fish and colloquial intrepretations of the big picture even if the perspective is stunted. Does it help to make folks feel bad about their enthusiastic impulses to put their finger prints on what they see as 'enlightened change'? Probably not. The lesson may be lost for years but maybe it will rise to the top again when the newbie is seasoned? Time will tell. JR and counting

  8. #8
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Mike, We know you don't like the "Move Up" System. Could you share what Awards lets say Your Show would have ?

  9. #9
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    For the same reasons, I disagree with the move-up system as a whole, but that it too radical for any show to consider.
    I agree with Mike.


    Somebody needs to explain in general terms "why" Kohaku, Sanke, and Showa belong in the three noble houses. The Gosanke question comes up often at a show.

    Or do we stick with JR's "they possess all the elements that are injected into other branches of the nishikigoi clan. Remember, once isolated, a gene pool is unique and can never be exactly the same as it was before the isolation. Crossing the 'royals' back into other nsihikigoi varieties gives then traits of the royals-- but it does not make the same as the royals."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I agree with Mike.


    Somebody needs to explain in general terms "why" Kohaku, Sanke, and Showa belong in the three noble houses. The Gosanke question comes up often at a show.

    Or do we stick with JR's "they possess all the elements that are injected into other branches of the nishikigoi clan. Remember, once isolated, a gene pool is unique and can never be exactly the same as it was before the isolation. Crossing the 'royals' back into other nsihikigoi varieties gives then traits of the royals-- but it does not make the same as the royals."
    We'll I like it! LOls

    Ok here is something that a lot of folks still do not know-- Kohaku and Sanke are the only actual line bred koi for the past 100 years. And so they have been perfected in shape, skin, color and pattern. It is also important to know that the Japanese like many Asians are big believers in 'quality goods' as a good value. The breeders value the Gosanke most of all because they are the most refined and most worked with. And for the koi kichi like myself, Gosanke are the fish that individual carry the most mutation trait genetics. More than any of the others.

    In addition, it is helpful to know that koi are the creation of thousands of breeders over hundreds of years. But the fish traits were introduced SYSTEMATICALLY and shared with each establushed variety in turn. You might have attended one of my lectures where I chart the roll out of hikari in all existing varieties one by one. yet there are two distict types of hikari fish-- all based on how they are mixed with older varieties.
    In the case of Gosanke, once there traits were perfected they were introduced systematically to close white based relatives. But still, there other varieties can have some of the Gosanke traits but they don't have all of them. And most importantly, those that get some kohaku trait can't produce more kohaku! The line represents pure mutation genes reproducable in a line of kohaku.

    A gosanke like a sanke has :
    1) a mutation white skin ( shiroji) that captures light and reflects it back, making the fish look like wet china.
    2) the mutation white skin has guanine content that sparkles like diamond dust or outlines the scale
    3) the scales are appointed with ornmental boarders
    4) the fish possess a mutation pattern known as a piebald pattern
    5) the color cells of red are a mutation that mixes different shades of red to give a special effect
    6) the sanke has a mutation of black cells that gather at key points on the body to make a look of indigo ink.
    7) the sanke has semi transparent mutation collagen fibers that give the pattern a three dimensional look.

    this is a truly remarkable accomplishment of man and nature and only the line bred fish that has been worked on for generations of know stock has such traits. JR

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