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Thread: Goshiki vs Gosanke for best in size where is the reality.......................

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    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Goshiki vs Gosanke for best in size where is the reality.......................

    I read that Goshiki these days are now more competitive and have sometimes been achieving best in size, at least in the smaller ranges. I can see the leaps in Goshiki over the past few years. BUT, perhaps there is a reality that Goshiki has now caught up to some levels vs Gosanke and Gosanke have stalled in their achievement, that Gosanke have reached an apex and any area of improvement can only be minor in detail.
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    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    No doubt the comments will go to statement about the advancement of Goshiki and the state of Gosanke, but the remark goes to a deeper heart of Nishikigoi for me, as to when or even if there can be an apex of refinement, regardless of variety. Some thoughts?

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    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    I read that Goshiki these days are now more competitive and have sometimes been achieving best in size, at least in the smaller ranges. I can see the leaps in Goshiki over the past few years. BUT, perhaps there is a reality that Goshiki has now caught up to some levels vs Gosanke and Gosanke have stalled in their achievement, that Gosanke have reached an apex and any area of improvement can only be minor in detail.
    Interesting observation.
    The "genetic refinement" side of the coin vs the "selection refinement" side would come into play here wouldn't it?
    By "selection" I mean not only the process of sembetsu, but of the parent stock that are capable of producing young Goshiki that display the subtleties of Goshiki with qualities of skin, frame, colors, and patterns that are equal to their Gosanke cousins.

    My questions are these.
    Are we seeing the result of successful outcrossing from parents with genetic traits that are cooperative in producing the best each has to offer?
    or
    Are we seeing the result of Goshiki X Goshiki pairings that are developing a true "bloodline" of Goshiki?

    The answers could make all the difference on where things go from here wouldn't it?
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

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    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    It always tickled me that this variety was termed "5" colored, and as it progressed thru it's initial stages to
    "bean" sumi to it's current knock dead georgeous state, it still is not 5 colored. LOL

    I think when you get out the history books on koi, there was a huge effort initially to produce new and exciting varieties thru the 1900's. After Japan began to recover after world war two, refinement was all the effort (60's on). And yes, gosanke was the focus. Especially if you look at the effort to bring showa up to a competitive standard to compete with kohaku and sanke.

    I think there are still efforts to create something new. ( I wish INC would bring back it's green goromo)
    and i think gosanke is not at the top of their game quite yet. Style fads ( like ties can swing from fat to thin) and i think there is room for advancement. Kindai showa being the best example I can come up with at the moment.

    Like bonsai, the only finished variety is a dead one
    Dick Benbow

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    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Mark Gardner on his Blog, suggest or wonders if this isn't the Best Goshiki ever produced. I believe the Koi was in the 63cm range in size. While it may be the photo, would the same frame on a Gosanke cut it at this size ? Would the same pattern cut it at this size ?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Goshiki vs Gosanke for best in size where is the reality.......................-goshiki-1.jpg  

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    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Mark Gardner comes by here every so often, his observations on this question would be interesting.

    At his site there are some other great goshiki closeup photos
    http://www.niigata-nishikigoi.com/blog/1?page=8

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    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    The most beautiful Goshike I have seen... 00140 - YouTube
    darion6 and ricshaw like this.

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    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    The most beautiful Goshike I have seen... 00140 - YouTube
    Tim, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Dainichi has something to do with that Goshiki. I seem to remember seeing her in a video swimming around with a bunch of Gosanke at one of their greenhouses. Maybe someone would know if they are breeding Goshiki ?

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    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    There are a number of differing ways to approach the discussion.

    The gene pool
    Culling technique
    Raising technique
    Fad & perhaps changing perceptions of Goshiki. If many say Goshiki is better, buyers/dealers might be taking a second look today, whereas they might be passed over years ago
    A focus on Gosanke jumboism
    Judging attitudes, skill and perception

    In any case, something or several things have changed and 'clicked' to allow Goshiki the judges eye.

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    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    I have been told that a lot of the progress of improving the quality of goshiki has been due to crossing with gosanke. Kohaku and perhaps Showa have been used to improve not only the conformation but also the skin and color quality and also the pattern. The best quality goshiki being produced today seem to be head and shoulders above goshiki of even a decade ago. It would be interesting to know to what extent the crossing with gosanke vs the line crossing with other goshiki has had the most positive effect.

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