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Thread: "You Be The Judge" Exercise now online

  1. #11
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    3,1,5,2,4...using the order they are in the pictures here. They are in a different order following the link.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    A fellow has shared with me his frustration over this exercise. The challenge of judging based on photos does come through rather clearly here. The koi I find most fascinating in the group is B (#4 above), simply because it stands out as different and if female looks like one that could become quite large and impressive. (If male, I lose interest. This is as good as 'he' will ever be.) But, I would rank 'her' low 'on the day' based on the photo because she is too thin and the pectorals are disproportionately small. 'She' is in that gangly growth period like the tall 13 year-old girl who will blossom later. And, the photo shows a very straight body with a bent head. Do I assume she is turning her head in movement, or that her head bends as the photo shows her? (BTW, I do not think she has a left eye defect. Whether she has a bent head or is turning, the left eye is looking where her nose is pointing, so it has moved in the socket and the photo angle emphasizes it. That's my 'photo assumption'.) The judges rank her as their #2, with their #1 conformation being the koi with the grossly lopsided body assumed to be straight and balanced.

    Without regard to the deficiencies in judging by photos, the discussion is excellent and everyone can learn a great deal about the balancing choices made by the judges. I hope the exercises continue for a long time. As long as the 'photo assumptions' made by the judges are explained, as they have been in this exercise, everyone can learn something about evaluating koi, even if they did not make the same assumptions in doing their personal rankings. It is good to rank on your own in advance, because it is a way to make yourself really examine the fish. The learning, however, occurs from the discussion and understanding it in context, and not getting frustrated that your rankings differ because you made different 'photo assumptions'. The chances are rather high that you will make an assumption the judges do not, and they as a group will reach a concensus assumption you did not make. It's not about whether your ranking agrees with the judges, but understanding how they look at the pieces and parts.

  3. #13
    Tategoi hewhoisatpeace's Avatar
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    I'm with you, Mike, I placed koi B as #1, and still think so. Still interesting to see the evaluation, knowing, too, that we're handicapped by the still photos.

  4. #14
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    Body shape/Conformation.

    4-1-3-5-2 (B-E-C-A-D)... by the pics.

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    Body shape/Conformation.

    4-1-3-5-2 (B-E-C-A-D)... by the pics.

    But, two days ago you said: 4-5-1-2-3. ...Easy to like 4, no?

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    BTW, using the numbers assigned to the pics here, the judging rank was: 2-4-1-3-5.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    But, two days ago you said: 4-5-1-2-3. ...Easy to like 4, no?
    Sorry, I messed up those numbers.

    4-5-2-1-3 for overall ranking. (by the pictures)
    ----------------------------------

    2-5-3-1-4 for Body

    4-5-2-1-3 for Quality

    2-5-1-3-4 for Pattern

    (Assume the head is not crooked on #4 and the left eye is functioning normally on #1)



  8. #18
    Tategoi Erns's Avatar
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    I have a hard time seeing why 2 was ranked so high based on inconsistancy on the hi. Ond the shoulder there is an area where the hi is not uniform. The last hi patch on the tail is not uniform and I think the hi on the side which is almost not visible on the photo but it's clear there is some issues there. The shiroji is not very clean to my eye either compared to 4 for example.

    I like 3 the best of the group, then 4.

  9. #19
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erns View Post
    I have a hard time seeing why 2 was ranked so high based on inconsistancy on the hi. Ond the shoulder there is an area where the hi is not uniform. The last hi patch on the tail is not uniform and I think the hi on the side which is almost not visible on the photo but it's clear there is some issues there. The shiroji is not very clean to my eye either compared to 4 for example.

    I like 3 the best of the group, then 4.
    The judges' ranking is based solely on conformation. They will be ranking for other factors over the days ahead, and then give an overall ranking. To understand the rankings, follow the link above to find the explanations, which also gives you the assumptions made about the photos. Interactive discussion is supposed to be possible if you register. I don't know how that will work. I registered, but did not see a discussion yet, nor where it would/could occur. I figure I'll go back in due course & try to figure out the site.

    In regard to #3 (C), she was the early favorite for best conformation among those who posted early on this board. But, she received a low ranking due to the head proportions. The judges refer to her having too short a head. I would not explain it that way. She has a broad head, resulting in the proportions being off in relation to the length. They explain the proportion ideal. Read that and you can understand where they are focused. Based on the photo, her head does not seem to be materially shorter than the others to me, but it is certainly much broader. That is where she falls short of the proportional ideal the judges are looking for. (And, yes, if the head was longer, the proportions would meet the ideal... but then the head might be seen as too big for the body?) This broad head can create what some call a flat head... flat between the eyes. Koi with such broad heads tend to have a strong shoulder, which can result in such koi either having a crease line where the shoulder meets the head, or the head appearing to jut out from the body, rather than a smooth transition. Such fish often have a powerful build that a lot of folks really like. I think it derives from European food fish genetics lurking in the background. U.S. judges have been coming down hard on this type of body structure, commenting on the head proportions. (I think it is an aspect of a body type that exhibits other linked traits fairly consistently, and not just a head issue.) I cannot say if the same is true of judges elsewhere. I've been told European judging is applying a negative view with similar weight. If you go back to old Japanese show books from the 1980's, you'll find examples of the body type that took high honors. I've not seen any among top koi at major Japanese shows per reports in e-Rinko and Nichirin in the last several years.

    ...This negative view of her head/body type does not mean she will rank so low in the overall. Other traits could move her up. We'll see what happens.

  10. #20
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The introduction to the next judging element has been posted. Time to do your own ranking based on 'quality'. Three elements are the quality focus: skin, pigment and kiwa/sashi.

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