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Thread: Fats in Koi Food

  1. #101
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semi skilled keeper View Post
    Good morning yerrag, On most commercial bulk foods ( as used on fish farms ) The word FAT does not exist the term used is lipids ( of which fats are a sub group )
    Now lipid content is there to promote growth, and with many fish there is a maximum growth rate obtainable regardless of how much you feed !
    Over feeding once max growth is happening, just results in waste. A fish can only absorb, metabolize call it what you will a certain amount each day.
    This totally down to the organs in that fish. Push them too hard and they die !
    Lipids as a whole are essential , you will have seen terms such as essential fatty acids, they are also a subgroup of lipids.
    Cholesterol is an other too much is bad but so is not enough.
    MSG is seaweed and a man called Kikunae Ikeda found that it triggered a taste called Umami 1908 .
    Now this taste had been known about centuries by the Chinese and was celebrated in there five spice mixture ( ment to give each of your taste buds a hit )

    Now it could be that it is this flavor that is helping to make Koi food more palatable , It is described as a meaty taste , I will ask the fish next time I feed them !! Ha ha

    Brian

    Here is the description of saki hikari growth that mention lipids.

    Saki-Hikari Growth

    • Promotes unbelievable growth and championship form! During the development of this diet primary consideration was given to the natural, omnivorous requirements of Nishikigoi. With this in mined Hikari developed an exacting blend of lipid and other necessary nutritional components which always promotes fat-deposit-free development.
    • Includes a probiotic, Hikari Germ. This unique, beneficial bacteria overpowers bad bacteria within the intestine reducing it's propagation and ability to lethally infect your fish. Additionally, the proprietary Hikari Germ accelerates the digestive process thereby improving absorption and thereby reducing waste output.
    • Expect improved water quality and reduced filter maintenance when used as a daily diet.
    • Expect improved luster, reduced fatalities and fat-deposit-free growth as a result of the perfect ingredient balance.

  2. #102
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    yes it does come from seaweed. The Japanese do use msg in their food and as far as I can recall they have the longest average lifespan. My wife's grandmother always like her food cook with msg and she is like 90.

    FD koi food meanwhile uses Stevia, another controversial sweetener that is widely use in Japan but not popular in the States because of health safety concerns.
    Thats true Sacicu . The longevity factor is to be noted . Probabaly loads and loads of green tea !

    Found this link on MSG ( http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...rink.features3) , it says that MSG has since been synthesised , and its taste was essensced out from a broth of sea weed. In India, MSG is misused , every food hawker adds a dash of MSG to their quick fix dish , so that their stalls always have a crowd !

  3. #103
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Here is the description of saki hikari growth that mention lipids.

    Saki-Hikari Growth

    • Promotes unbelievable growth and championship form! During the development of this diet primary consideration was given to the natural, omnivorous requirements of Nishikigoi. With this in mined Hikari developed an exacting blend of lipid and other necessary nutritional components which always promotes fat-deposit-free development.
    • Includes a probiotic, Hikari Germ. This unique, beneficial bacteria overpowers bad bacteria within the intestine reducing it's propagation and ability to lethally infect your fish. Additionally, the proprietary Hikari Germ accelerates the digestive process thereby improving absorption and thereby reducing waste output.
    • Expect improved water quality and reduced filter maintenance when used as a daily diet.
    • Expect improved luster, reduced fatalities and fat-deposit-free growth as a result of the perfect ingredient balance.
    Homer, that says a lot about Hikari's dedication to providing food for good development of koi.

    But reading between the lines, I hope you are not making the conclusion that fat-deposit-free development implies that their formulation minimizes the use of fats/lipids/oils.

    Ingesting fat, contrary to conventional medical wisdom, as we have been misled to think by ******* media (haha, I just learned there is a bad word filtering algorithm in our forum), does not necessarily lead to us gaining fatty deposits in our tissues. There is more to the science than that. Better read up on that. But mind your sources. If it's newspapers, magazines, and TV - you may just be reading on fictional science (or advertiser-biased science).

    p.s. Just ask yourself what pigs eat to gain all that fat for bacon? Is it fat? What about people getting obese even while eating fat-free food? Hint: It's not the genes.

  4. #104
    Tategoi semi skilled keeper's Avatar
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    Glad to see a fair amount of scepticism , All this shows is that they employ a very good marketing person, who knows what Koi keepers want to hear !
    we ALL WANT GREAT GROWTH, CLEAN WATER SUPERB COLORS, REDUCED FATALITIES.
    Magic words like PROBIOTIC , CHAMPIONSHIP FORM, LESS FILTER MAINTENANCE

    Add the little very subtle 'when used as a daily diet '

    Feed this and your Koi will grow fast, win Championships with very little effort on your part !

    I think was what they are inferring ! if only half of that was true !

    Manufacturers are not legally obliged to put the exact formulation as this could be a trade secret , but a bit more detail would not go a miss .

    Bull --------- watch the ALGORITHM is used to grow Koi, it is used to promote insect growth for live food in Mud ponds.
    Used even more to promote SALES OF KOI RELATED ITEMS !

    Brian

  5. #105
    Tategoi mtsklar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    yes it does come from seaweed. The Japanese do use msg in their food and as far as I can recall they have the longest average lifespan. My wife's grandmother always like her food cook with msg and she is like 90.

    FD koi food meanwhile uses Stevia, another controversial sweetener that is widely use in Japan but not popular in the States because of health safety concerns.
    .......................

  6. #106
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Fats and Nitrates

    I didn't know I would be coming back to this thread as this topic can also be classified under nitrates or under water changes. But since I had questioned the lack of fats in koi pellets, and specifically the lack of quality fats in koi pellets, I thought it better to put it here, as fats impact water quality- on the good side.

    I once experimented with feeding fresh anchovy, which I had discussed about in another thread- and I had not shared the results of that. Some koi took well to it, slurping it up with gusto, some got accustomed to it, and some never wanted anything to do with it, preferring to fast. In time, I ended the experiment. It cost just about the same as the koi pellets I was buying. High quality protein for sure, but not something for everyday as I might be missing on key nutrients.

    During that time, I took readings of water quality - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. I was getting usual values for ammonia and nitrite - around zero, but my nitrate readings went up, from 40 ppm to 80 ppm. The nitrate reading of 40 was a constant expectation for me when feeding with Aquamaster Growth pellets.

    To me, this meant there was too much protein, and too little of either fat and carbohydrates. Koi was metabolizing protein for energy because there was not enough fat or carbs to metabolize. It's important to note that fresh anchovy is 75 water, 20 protein, and 5 percent fat.

    I then added coconut meat to the fresh anchovy, such that the end result was that the koi were eating 3 parts fats to 4 parts protein, on a dry weight basis. I'm making a long story short, so please ask me later how I computed this if some clarification is needed.

    Giving it a week for the change on water quality to take effect as a result of food change, I once again took readings. Nitrate went down drastically, with ammonia and nitrite remaining constant. You're not going to believe this as I couldn't then- I was getting 5 ppm readings. I continued on the same protocol for 2 more weeks, and the results didn't change. Koi Nirvana- if the koi could talk.

    For me, this meant that for all the focus we give our biological filters- k1, bakki, anoxic etc - to control nitrate, and the emphasis we place on water changes, we have not focused on the other controllable aspect of nitrogenous waste control. We spend a lot of effort on nitrate removal, but we assume that the amount of ammonia koi produces is a given.

    I had for a time resigned myself to accepting that when I feed my koi with pellets, I would be getting readings of 40-80 ppm, for which the solution would be regular enough water changes. I would consider possible solutions such as anoxic filtration (for which I am in the 3rd week of a trial in my aquarium). Little would I know that my choice of koi food would have as much, if not greater, impact on my water nitrate levels.

    I added coconut meat once again to my koi pellets, at a smaller ratio of coconut meat this time, to compensate for the fat and carbs incorporated in the pellets. I took nitrate readings again, and was happy once again to find that the nitrate readings stayed at 5ppm.

    I don't know what the effect of feeding so much coconut meat has on the long term. I'm pretty sure you've read somewhere that fish eating lots of saturated fat would end up with white liver spots. And you may be aware that coconut oil has a high freezing point (at 25 C), and thus not applicable at cold weather. And there is reasonable concern that fats and oils would create an oil slick on the water surface. In any case, those are valid concerns.

    I know convenience is important. That's why we have dog food, cat food, and koi food. Many cat food formulas are made for cat to poop in solid un-messy scoopable chunks. Maybe not much thought may be given to whether the cat food is healthful and whether it may cause early death for which high vet bills are the norm. But I would like to at least share with you koi keepers this information, so that you could tell me whether there are koi food pellets, premium or not, that is formulated for low nitrogenous waste production without sacrificing protein content, or without sacrificing growth and color development.

    I think many koi hobbyists would be interested in koi food formulated for such results. And if this awareness could spur someone to offer a better alternative, it would be good for the hobbyists. It may be less convenient, but some hobbyists would think it worth the trouble.

    Lastly, I now have started to look at my shiro utsuri's shiroji to gauge my water nitrate levels. When I am just feeding koi pellets, it's shiroji gets a slight but noticeable reddish tint. To me, it's the result of high nitrate in the water.

  7. #107
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Interesting observations. I do believe that optimal fat levels are higher than we typically see in pellet foods. Pellets do not keep for long if fat levels are high. The manufacturers have to consider shelf life when formulating their products. I do not know whether coconut oils are a good supplement.

    You say: "Lastly, I now have started to look at my shiro utsuri's shiroji to gauge my water nitrate levels. When I am just feeding koi pellets, it's shiroji gets a slight but noticeable reddish tint. To me, it's the result of high nitrate in the water." ...Nitrate and other contaminants does affect the skin and mucus coat, and can contribute to yellowing and dullness. In your case, it may be the ingredients in the pellet. Shrimp, krill and xanthin type additives affect the shiroji. Shiro Utsuri and Tancho Kohaku are often the first to show signs of declining water quality or color-enhancing ingredients in foods.

  8. #108
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Hi Mike, what do you think about koi pellets being two-component offerings? One component is purely protein and carbs. And the other mainly fats. This way, there's no risk in the fat spoiling the other macro-nutrients. Or, in the absence of such offering, one simply adds a fat component which in my case, is coconut meat.

    I believe it's better than the current practice of lumping the fats in with protein and carbs, with the need to add anti-oxidants and preservatives to preserve the fats, which to my knowledge is not really healthful. Besides, there is a limit to fat content beyond which makes the pellets hard to stay together. And so our pellet formulations are really determined by the need for pellets to stay together, not by what koi really need.

    As to what shape and form and fat content the second-part pellet or capsule or pillow should take, it is a challenge for the koi pellet manufacturers have to work on to overcome.

  9. #109
    Tosai Edith Fleischman's Avatar
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    my koi eat Purina Gamefish Chow...and the occasional handful of nightcrawlers......WAY cheaper than "koi food"....and they are very healthy and happy and im not broke from shelling out enormous amounts of money to feed carp....who will eat ANYTHING...They also love to snack on roots of water hyacinth..lettuce..and considering my oldest is 14.....they are doing just fine...and Merry Christmas to everybody and your happy fishy families

  10. #110
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Merry Christmas Edith!

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