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Thread: ORP Baseline

  1. #21
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    It's the pond to the left of the entrance as you walk in, which currently holds tosai kohakus from Kentaro Sakai. No salt added.

    Ok thanks. It would have been better if you took the azukari pond water as sample.

  2. #22
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Yes, as they're not connected to just one big filter. But I was happy to get confirmation that my pond water needs to be improved. Having at least a baseline from a well-managed pond, even if not the azukari pond, was what I needed. I didn't know if I should trust the rule of thumb that orp readings of less than 200 are indication of unhealthy/unclean water, and now I do (as orp values are lower at higher temperatures, and I have no way of knowing if the high temperatures fully account for orp readings going below the threshold of 200).

    Do you take ORP readings of your pond?

  3. #23
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Yes, as they're not connected to just one big filter. But I was happy to get confirmation that my pond water needs to be improved. Having at least a baseline from a well-managed pond, even if not the azukari pond, was what I needed. I didn't know if I should trust the rule of thumb that orp readings of less than 200 are indication of unhealthy/unclean water, and now I do (as orp values are lower at higher temperatures, and I have no way of knowing if the high temperatures fully account for orp readings going below the threshold of 200).

    Do you take ORP readings of your pond?
    No I dont take ORP readings because it just confuses me.

    Why do you say you took samples from a well managed pond. How fast have the SFF kois have grown in that pond? When you took the readings there did you ask when the filter had been cleaned and when food was last given?

  4. #24
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    I say it's well-managed because I trust Mike's knowledge in koi keeping. That they are selling kois, and would keep their pond clean to avoid stress, makes them more conscious of keeping water clean. They may not be feeding to maximize growth, but the water quality speaks to a kind of balance needed in a pond consistent with having a healthy orp reading. That they can reach a value of 233 and I got 170 shows I have much room for improvement. That we are in the same city and using similar filter systems also assures me of that.

    I didn't need the specifics then of last fed time but the frequency of brush cleaning (once a week) and mat cleaning (not sure whether once a month or once every quarter) gives me an idea I need to increase my cleaning frequency. Their pond turnover of 1 hour also lower than my turnover of 2.

    Unless I am a skilled koi keeper who can rely on visual cues of the pond's health reliably, I would be relying on orp readings until I can get to a point where I can map visual cues to orp readings. Relying simply on tds meters and API test kits just don't cut it anymore for me this is what I'm finding out. A pond could have a lot of suspended solids, which aren't dissolved and aren't accounted for in these tests. And what about the doc's other than nitrates, alkalinity, and general hardness that aren't measured?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I say it's well-managed because I trust Mike's knowledge in koi keeping. That they are selling kois, and would keep their pond clean to avoid stress, makes them more conscious of keeping water clean. They may not be feeding to maximize growth, but the water quality speaks to a kind of balance needed in a pond consistent with having a healthy orp reading. That they can reach a value of 233 and I got 170 shows I have much room for improvement. That we are in the same city and using similar filter systems also assures me of that.

    I didn't need the specifics then of last fed time but the frequency of brush cleaning (once a week) and mat cleaning (not sure whether once a month or once every quarter) gives me an idea I need to increase my cleaning frequency. Their pond turnover of 1 hour also lower than my turnover of 2.

    Unless I am a skilled koi keeper who can rely on visual cues of the pond's health reliably, I would be relying on orp readings until I can get to a point where I can map visual cues to orp readings. Relying simply on tds meters and API test kits just don't cut it anymore for me this is what I'm finding out. A pond could have a lot of suspended solids, which aren't dissolved and aren't accounted for in these tests. And what about the doc's other than nitrates, alkalinity, and general hardness that aren't measured?

    I think you have to differentiate a dealers holding pond versus a hobbyist growing pond. In the pond you measured the kois hardly grows( well it does just very very slowly). as such getting the reading of it and making your new baseline without knowing the other factors such as PH, TDS, temp, etc. makes it a skewed reading. I suggest you take a reading at my pond.

    You may want to read at this article:

    http://www.yumekoi.com/images/storie...imeInJapan.pdf

  6. #26
    Tategoi semi skilled keeper's Avatar
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    Good points about the differences between dealers and the rest.
    A dealer will keep his stock on a maintenance diet. They need to have the Koi in a fit state to travel, so when the sell one it can go there and then.
    You never move fish that have just been fed, so why would you keep them with full gut !

    Brian

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by semi skilled keeper View Post
    Good points about the differences between dealers and the rest.
    A dealer will keep his stock on a maintenance diet. They need to have the Koi in a fit state to travel, so when the sell one it can go there and then.
    You never move fish that have just been fed, so why would you keep them with full gut !

    Brian
    There are dealers especially those who sell a limited but more expensive kois can afford and willing to grow their koi inventory to increase further their profit margin. For example, they would buy a few high quality jumbo tosai, sell some and grow some for those who prefer nisais or sansais instead despite the mire costly price. Garden centers and dealers who buy in volume would try to keep cost down and just maintain the size. Remeber as these kois are cheaper they look more pretty keeping them small rather than risk growing them and have quality suffer especially when the pond space is limited and koi food expense is budgeted.

  8. #28
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    I think you have to differentiate a dealers holding pond versus a hobbyist growing pond. In the pond you measured the kois hardly grows( well it does just very very slowly). as such getting the reading of it and making your new baseline without knowing the other factors such as PH, TDS, temp, etc. makes it a skewed reading. I suggest you take a reading at my pond.
    That would be swell. PM me your contact info and we'll arrange it this weekend.

    You may want to read at this article:

    http://www.yumekoi.com/images/storie...imeInJapan.pdf
    Very good article. Very helpful. Thanks! I had the feeling that my pond, which isn't treated by UV light, but uses em-1 microorganisms, might have lower ORP readings than ponds on UV. This article, while focusing on mud ponds, lends support to that.

    Would be interesting to get your ORP.

  9. #29
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Part 2 of Mark Gardner's interview of Mike Snaden in Nishikigoi Digest International (vol. 2) gives an interesting perspective on orp. Snaden states that he has tested ORP levels in many mud ponds in Japan and found they average just around 100mV... very low, indeed. He explains that the clay has an anti-oxidizing interaction with the water, and he attributes the positive results of the mud pond environment on skin and pigments to be significantly due to this low oxidation environment.

    Snaden's observation does not mean that our koi ponds should have such a low ORP. Rather, it highlights that ORP by itself is meaningless. It is the how and why behind the ORP that is important. A low ORP caused by an over abundance of decaying waste is confirming the negative of having decaying waste. A low ORP caused by the effects of clay in a mud pond is confirming the effects of the clay.

    Snaden has long focused on TDS as a major parameter. A low TDS often coincides with a higher ORP level, but not always.

    As many know, I am much opposed to the practice of using PP to clean water. I enjoyed a comment made by Snaden:

    "It's easy to say, well OK the ORP is low we'll lift the ORP up by using potassium permanganate but at the end of the day you can oxidize all your organics in the pond using potassium but you can still have a high TDS level afterwards so I don't think there is any point in dressing up your ORP levels in order to deem your water as being clean, you're much better off using conductivity or TDS levels to determine it's clean."

    Something to think about.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Part 2 of Mark Gardner's interview of Mike Snaden in Nishikigoi Digest International (vol. 2) gives an interesting perspective on orp. Snaden states that he has tested ORP levels in many mud ponds in Japan and found they average just around 100mV... very low, indeed. He explains that the clay has an anti-oxidizing interaction with the water, and he attributes the positive results of the mud pond environment on skin and pigments to be significantly due to this low oxidation environment.

    Snaden's observation does not mean that our koi ponds should have such a low ORP. Rather, it highlights that ORP by itself is meaningless. It is the how and why behind the ORP that is important. A low ORP caused by an over abundance of decaying waste is confirming the negative of having decaying waste. A low ORP caused by the effects of clay in a mud pond is confirming the effects of the clay.

    Snaden has long focused on TDS as a major parameter. A low TDS often coincides with a higher ORP level, but not always.

    As many know, I am much opposed to the practice of using PP to clean water. I enjoyed a comment made by Snaden:

    "It's easy to say, well OK the ORP is low we'll lift the ORP up by using potassium permanganate but at the end of the day you can oxidize all your organics in the pond using potassium but you can still have a high TDS level afterwards so I don't think there is any point in dressing up your ORP levels in order to deem your water as being clean, you're much better off using conductivity or TDS levels to determine it's clean."

    Something to think about.
    I do not think the clay is what makes the ORP low in a mudpond. I do think its more of the population of good bacteria in the mudpond is what makes the orp low.

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