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Thread: ORP Baseline

  1. #31
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    I do not think the clay is what makes the ORP low in a mudpond. I do think its more of the population of good bacteria in the mudpond is what makes the orp low.
    I'm with you there Homer.

    I'm more and more of the thinking that an ORP meter is at best a luxury and at worst a waste of money. I could have a very healthy pond and ORP would be very low. It could simply mean there are more biomass. If I regularly drain the pond of waste and don't have many plants, don't overfeed, and don't overstock, and my ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, kH, TDS, and DO readings are very good, then the low ORP only confirms a strong presence of good bacteria.

    The same pond, after a continuous heavy downpour, my ORP goes way up, say from 100 to 240. I should be thrilled, but it's short-lived as a few days later ORP goes back to 100. I used to worry about getting low readngs, but realize now I should put my focus elsewhere.

    Making sure I follow good water husbandry and feeding well, I want now to focus on nitrates more than ever. If my filtration system can't keep nitrates low enough, more water changes. With a mind though, to improve my filtration system such that nitrates can be removed quickly. The use of good bacteria such as em-1 helps me though while I don't have a better or perfect filtration system.

    I can very well understand now why there are people like Homer who don't bother with an ORP meter. Not a total waste for me. I can use it to test my saliva and urine:-)

  2. #32
    Nisai
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I'm with you there Homer.

    I'm more and more of the thinking that an ORP meter is at best a luxury and at worst a waste of money. I could have a very healthy pond and ORP would be very low. It could simply mean there are more biomass. If I regularly drain the pond of waste and don't have many plants, don't overfeed, and don't overstock, and my ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, kH, TDS, and DO readings are very good, then the low ORP only confirms a strong presence of good bacteria.

    The same pond, after a continuous heavy downpour, my ORP goes way up, say from 100 to 240. I should be thrilled, but it's short-lived as a few days later ORP goes back to 100. I used to worry about getting low readngs, but realize now I should put my focus elsewhere.

    Making sure I follow good water husbandry and feeding well, I want now to focus on nitrates more than ever. If my filtration system can't keep nitrates low enough, more water changes. With a mind though, to improve my filtration system such that nitrates can be removed quickly. The use of good bacteria such as em-1 helps me though while I don't have a better or perfect filtration system.

    I can very well understand now why there are people like Homer who don't bother with an ORP meter. Not a total waste for me. I can use it to test my saliva and urine:-)
    My take on ORP. I think it is only a trend and gives an indication of how hard your filters are working, Whenever my ORP is running a bit low for any given p.H. There is usually a bit of debri lieing in the bottom of one of my filters. After removing the debre the filters no longer require to convert it so then the ORP goes back up. This can all happen whilst the TDS is more or less contant.That doesn,t mean I don,t use TDS as a means of water quality. I have used both for several years and although not necessary I woulndn,t like to be without them. Most important meterin my view is p.H. best Regards Dave

  3. #33
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    My take on ORP. I think it is only a trend and gives an indication of how hard your filters are working, Whenever my ORP is running a bit low for any given p.H. There is usually a bit of debri lieing in the bottom of one of my filters. After removing the debre the filters no longer require to convert it so then the ORP goes back up. This can all happen whilst the TDS is more or less contant.That doesn,t mean I don,t use TDS as a means of water quality. I have used both for several years and although not necessary I woulndn,t like to be without them. Most important meterin my view is p.H. best Regards Dave
    .
    I agree with you Dave. As MikeM had stated, the use of ORP lies in understanding it in the context of each individual pond. Knowing your pond, you can relate a lower ORP to the accumulation of debris at the bottom of your filter, and as you imply a downward trend gives you a warning that your pond is becoming less healthy for the koi. As a tool, the ORP meter now only serves as a tool to confirm that if you don't flush your filters to remove debris, your pond becomes an unhealthy environment for your Koi to develop, much less to live in. And as we both agree, it isn't necessary if we already follow regularly a protocol for cleaning our pond regularly, and that we employ other indicators to check pond health.

    I understand now better the term 'trend' in the use of ORP as I had been too fixated on following a guideline of fixed ORP values: less than 200 mV being unhealthy, above 200 mV being healthy, above 300 mV very clean, above 400 mV too much and will kill blah blah. Those guidelines are based on a philosophy of Koi keeping that I do not adhere to, it seems, which requires a rather sterile environment, where a reduced biomass of microorganisms take the place of a more diverse interaction of pond microorganisms, which I believe contribute to a fuller biological development of Koi.

    I admit though that I had bought an ORP meter with the mistaken thinking that it would be so nice to have just one tool, one indicator, to test for pond health. Now, I am stepping back from that delusion and going back to having my suite of indicators.

    Since I already have my ORP meter, I will start to find a way to use it the right way- as a trend tool, to relate its high and low values to pond health, and maybe come to better appreciate its use.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    .
    I agree with you Dave. As MikeM had stated, the use of ORP lies in understanding it in the context of each individual pond. Knowing your pond, you can relate a lower ORP to the accumulation of debris at the bottom of your filter, and as you imply a downward trend gives you a warning that your pond is becoming less healthy for the koi. As a tool, the ORP meter now only serves as a tool to confirm that if you don't flush your filters to remove debris, your pond becomes an unhealthy environment for your Koi to develop, much less to live in. And as we both agree, it isn't necessary if we already follow regularly a protocol for cleaning our pond regularly, and that we employ other indicators to check pond health.

    I understand now better the term 'trend' in the use of ORP as I had been too fixated on following a guideline of fixed ORP values: less than 200 mV being unhealthy, above 200 mV being healthy, above 300 mV very clean, above 400 mV too much and will kill blah blah. Those guidelines are based on a philosophy of Koi keeping that I do not adhere to, it seems, which requires a rather sterile environment, where a reduced biomass of microorganisms take the place of a more diverse interaction of pond microorganisms, which I believe contribute to a fuller biological development of Koi.

    I admit though that I had bought an ORP meter with the mistaken thinking that it would be so nice to have just one tool, one indicator, to test for pond health. Now, I am stepping back from that delusion and going back to having my suite of indicators.

    Since I already have my ORP meter, I will start to find a way to use it the right way- as a trend tool, to relate its high and low values to pond health, and maybe come to better appreciate its use.
    That about sums it all up. I also use TDS meter to determine whether or not I am carrying out sufficient water changes. If I add anything to buffer hte water I can expect an increase in TDS and a fall in ORP( due to an increase in p.H. However if I do not do suffiicient water changes and allow nitrates and or G.H. to increase then this increases the TDS. I have a base line TDS from the tap water of around 70ppm and idealy my pond is kept within 30ppm above this. I have heard lots of arguments as to whether or not a TDS meter measure organics. Who cares. Like you said I believe its knowing what to expect with readings in my pond for instance. One easy way to improve ORP is to thin out your stock as your koi grow. If you don,t the the trend will always be downwards. Just my take on ORP & TDS. Best regards Dave

  5. #35
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    That about sums it all up. I also use TDS meter to determine whether or not I am carrying out sufficient water changes. If I add anything to buffer hte water I can expect an increase in TDS and a fall in ORP( due to an increase in p.H. However if I do not do suffiicient water changes and allow nitrates and or G.H. to increase then this increases the TDS. I have a base line TDS from the tap water of around 70ppm and idealy my pond is kept within 30ppm above this. I have heard lots of arguments as to whether or not a TDS meter measure organics. Who cares. Like you said I believe its knowing what to expect with readings in my pond for instance. One easy way to improve ORP is to thin out your stock as your koi grow. If you don,t the the trend will always be downwards. Just my take on ORP & TDS. Best regards Dave
    Agree. I see that happen in my aquarium of black molly. A large population slowly gets reduced by natural attrition to a level where no more mollies die. Just nature's way of dealing with imbalances, in this case an aquarium filter incapable of supporting a biomass without the required water changes, which was impractical for me to accomplish. Am sure the ORP levels if measured would differ by night and day for the two conditions.

    I also have similar tap water TDS levels, and keep TDS levels not much higher with water changes. And as you say, it doesn't measure organics, which are suspended and not dissolved. And you bring up a good point, and this may be where knowing my pond's ORP range, or if you will, its fingerprint, or signature, could be of value. That's something I need to figure out.

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