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Thread: A few of our new koi

  1. #1
    Sansai
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    A few of our new koi

    These are a few new koi that we have bought . Any impressions , will be greatly appreciated , and will help me learn as a relative newbie in this hobby.

    The sandan and yondan kohaku are from Hoshikin , tosai , 30 cm.

    The other kohaku with a slightly better body line and tail tube , but with a scattering of patterns has just turned nisai measuring 42.5 cm , is also from Hoshikin. The sanke is a nisai measuring 46.5 cm.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A few of our new koi-img_1172.jpg   A few of our new koi-img_1207.jpg   A few of our new koi-fb3.jpg   A few of our new koi-img_1083.jpg   A few of our new koi-img_1105.jpg  


  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Welcome to K-B. I saw your pond in the 'welcome' forum. Nice looking water! I know nothing about the hobby in India. I hope you will tell us about it when the occasion arises.

    Since you are new to the board, I'll repeat what I've said before about my posts commenting on other people's koi. No evaluation based on a photo is reliable. I am wrong in my predictions almost as often as I am right. I comment as much to test myself as any other reason. I hope you will post update photos a year from now so I can see whether I read the fish accurately. I try to give my honest opinion without being harsh. I may be less abrupt in my choice of words with someone I do not know than someone I do know, but I still try to be clear. Sometimes I offend folks when I say something negative about their koi. I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

    These koi look male to me. The first Kohaku has a good body form. He is 'finished', by which I mean that what you see is what you have. There is little to develop further. The question then becomes how rapidly his pigment will decline. (All koi decline in time.) You want it to be very slow. You will see comments on the internet that male koi decline rapidly. That is not accurate. Some do. Some do not. Some retain their attractiveness for many years. What I like about this one is the strength of the body. I expect he is a strong swimmer and makes a bold impression, particularly at feeding time.

    The 4-step and 3-step Kohaku each have another year of development ahead. There are lighter scales within the Hi steps, and the sashi is blurry. These points concern me. They could indicate thin Hi. You will find out over the year ahead. On the positive side, the kiwa is reasonably clean for what were tosai harvested last Fall. The pigment seems to be consolidating rather than fading along the kiwa edge. These are attractive koi that will give enjoyment in the near term. After another year or so, I am thinking they will be 'background koi'... koi that add color and movement to the pond, but are not the focus of the viewer's attention.

    The one I find most interesting is the Sanke. The reflection in the water makes evaluation tricky, as does the angle of the photo. I expect the head length is greater than the photo makes it seem. The body form is good. Although I think this is a male, he has a more full body, similar to what one might expect in a female. He is going to grow. As he grows, there will be changes in his pattern. Insertions of white are developing. The pattern may improve quite a bit. The sumi is still developing. In a couple of years you may be surprised to look back at this photo, with more sumi appearing. Altogether, the Sanke is the one I would be watching. I'm guessing it will be a pleasure to keep for years to come.

    I would not consider any of the four to be 'show fish', but they are definitely more than 'pretty pond fish'. One thing to keep in mind in regard to the Hoshikin "tosai" is that they would have been harvested last Fall as tosai. Since then, they have very likely been kept in holding tanks and sale tanks. So, it is likely that they have received limited feeding and have not grown as much as would have been the case if they had been kept by the breeder to raise up to nisai. You may see a growth spurt in your pond, which can be fun to observe, but it can also show weaknesses in the pigments sooner. Slower growth may be best for them, even if not for the Sanke. You do not list where you are in India. The climate varies so much over the country, I do not know if there is a cool period of the year in your area. If there is, take advantage of it by giving your koi a resting period.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    welcome to our board

    I prefer young koi with heavy patterns that they can grow into. But we all have to start somewhere and expect changes in our pattern preferences
    and education. I consider it a real priviledge to have someone from india on the board and sharing...

  4. #4
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Welcome to K-B. I saw your pond in the 'welcome' forum. Nice looking water! I know nothing about the hobby in India. I hope you will tell us about it when the occasion arises.

    Since you are new to the board, I'll repeat what I've said before about my posts commenting on other people's koi. No evaluation based on a photo is reliable. I am wrong in my predictions almost as often as I am right. I comment as much to test myself as any other reason. I hope you will post update photos a year from now so I can see whether I read the fish accurately. I try to give my honest opinion without being harsh. I may be less abrupt in my choice of words with someone I do not know than someone I do know, but I still try to be clear. Sometimes I offend folks when I say something negative about their koi. I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

    These koi look male to me. The first Kohaku has a good body form. He is 'finished', by which I mean that what you see is what you have. There is little to develop further. The question then becomes how rapidly his pigment will decline. (All koi decline in time.) You want it to be very slow. You will see comments on the internet that male koi decline rapidly. That is not accurate. Some do. Some do not. Some retain their attractiveness for many years. What I like about this one is the strength of the body. I expect he is a strong swimmer and makes a bold impression, particularly at feeding time.

    The 4-step and 3-step Kohaku each have another year of development ahead. There are lighter scales within the Hi steps, and the sashi is blurry. These points concern me. They could indicate thin Hi. You will find out over the year ahead. On the positive side, the kiwa is reasonably clean for what were tosai harvested last Fall. The pigment seems to be consolidating rather than fading along the kiwa edge. These are attractive koi that will give enjoyment in the near term. After another year or so, I am thinking they will be 'background koi'... koi that add color and movement to the pond, but are not the focus of the viewer's attention.

    The one I find most interesting is the Sanke. The reflection in the water makes evaluation tricky, as does the angle of the photo. I expect the head length is greater than the photo makes it seem. The body form is good. Although I think this is a male, he has a more full body, similar to what one might expect in a female. He is going to grow. As he grows, there will be changes in his pattern. Insertions of white are developing. The pattern may improve quite a bit. The sumi is still developing. In a couple of years you may be surprised to look back at this photo, with more sumi appearing. Altogether, the Sanke is the one I would be watching. I'm guessing it will be a pleasure to keep for years to come.

    I would not consider any of the four to be 'show fish', but they are definitely more than 'pretty pond fish'. One thing to keep in mind in regard to the Hoshikin "tosai" is that they would have been harvested last Fall as tosai. Since then, they have very likely been kept in holding tanks and sale tanks. So, it is likely that they have received limited feeding and have not grown as much as would have been the case if they had been kept by the breeder to raise up to nisai. You may see a growth spurt in your pond, which can be fun to observe, but it can also show weaknesses in the pigments sooner. Slower growth may be best for them, even if not for the Sanke. You do not list where you are in India. The climate varies so much over the country, I do not know if there is a cool period of the year in your area. If there is, take advantage of it by giving your koi a resting period.

    Hi Mike,

    What you say puts everything into what i think is the "near perfect evaluation ". The sanke is bound to grow and grow , though i am skeptical about its beni running the distance . There are quite a few weak Teri areas on its beni , which the picture doesnt clearly show. But i am looking forward to see its next 4-5 years. The finished kohaku , would have been a reasonable stunner , had its beni not peaked in an instant . This koi as you said has great flesh and strength with a very wonderful opaque milky cream skin texture . I am hopeful for the two hoshikin tosais , and as advised by you , will go slow on them . We live in Chennai, in the South of India , where temperatures do not go below 18 deg C, and there are no winters. Their resting can be managed, as in keeping them in the holding tank, during the cooler period between Oct to Feb. Its also easy to then condition the limited water to a virtual zero GH and a KH of 2 to 2.5 ( one has to keep an eagle eye on the PH ) , and have the water relatively soft at about 100 PPM . This i can not do in our main pond , simply because of the cost involved in softening the water (the main pond has a TDS of 290 PPM , with the replenishing ground bore water having a TDS of 260 PPM ). The 4 koi have costed me about USD 150 each , which i think is value to an extent ( I know that breeders naturally look to off-load their finished or average koi at the earliest , providing them space and focus to work more on the "hopefuls". May be, if money and my wife permits , will look to have the slow finishers . Its always a joy and satisfaction to see simmering growth , that peaks to boil , bringing out the flavor of a subtle satisfaction for a long time.

    Kindly do let me have your thoughts on the Nisai Tancho Showa , that we have bought recently . Photos enclosed . I am a bit concerned , its red streakings, has only marginally reduced , though its been put through a mild anti-bacterial course of 10 days in the QT. Its other mates bought along with it , however , have no red streaks . Probably will hold it in the QT for another 4-5 weeks , if the streakings persist , may have to try a stronger anti-bacterial medication. This koi costed us USD 500. May not grow to above 75- 80 cms , due to its stocky body line, but it has a nice cutting shoulder blade , and there is something about the attitude of this koi which made us like it instantly . The showa which is seen along with it , has a very muddy face, but a long spindled body line . Showas more often than not, are an enigma, hence, for exploring the unknown, did we decide ourselves for it. The two Kigoi are nice , and probably 4-5 months old. Always a welcome to have a few pale yellows to off-set the gosanke colors.

    Once again , thank you for the time and patience in guiding through.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A few of our new koi-img_0997.jpg   A few of our new koi-img_1018.jpg   A few of our new koi-img_1022.jpg  

  5. #5
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    welcome to our board

    I prefer young koi with heavy patterns that they can grow into. But we all have to start somewhere and expect changes in our pattern preferences
    and education. I consider it a real priviledge to have someone from india on the board and sharing...

    Thanks very much .

    I know koi that grow into a rock solid patterns can be in a league by itself , especially for the kohaku . We have a jumbo whom we bought as a tosai , in the year 2009. She has now grown into a well muscled jumbo with thick rock solid pattern ( seen curved on the surface of the water on one of the pictures posted in the welcome forum) , when she breaks the water to handfeed , it is spell binding !

    For sanke and shiro , i personally prefer the delicate and refine light patterns.

  6. #6
    Tategoi semi skilled keeper's Avatar
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    Hi Tora, as has already been said it is nice to have an Indian line of thought coming on to the threads!
    Can you fill us in on the state of play in India re koi keeping?
    How many Koi keepers are there ?
    Do you have any clubs/ societies ?
    Are there many importers ?

    The reason I ask is so that we can see why your fish cost what they did, and how you can obtain fish of the next standard up if you so require ( or in most of our cases can AFFORD to do so !
    There is a phrase for the beni over the tansho , it meant cloud over the sun ! but can't recall it ! One of our BRAIN TRUST WILL KNOW !
    Thanks for joining us,info on keeping koi in hot weather is always welcome ( just in case we get some ! ha ha )
    Brian

  7. #7
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by semi skilled keeper View Post
    Hi Tora, as has already been said it is nice to have an Indian line of thought coming on to the threads!
    Can you fill us in on the state of play in India re koi keeping?
    How many Koi keepers are there ?
    Do you have any clubs/ societies ?
    Are there many importers ?

    The reason I ask is so that we can see why your fish cost what they did, and how you can obtain fish of the next standard up if you so require ( or in most of our cases can AFFORD to do so !
    There is a phrase for the beni over the tansho , it meant cloud over the sun ! but can't recall it ! One of our BRAIN TRUST WILL KNOW !
    Thanks for joining us,info on keeping koi in hot weather is always welcome ( just in case we get some ! ha ha )
    Brian

    Hi Brian,

    Thanks . If i can put it this way " Koi keeping in India , is as yet , not even entered the spawning stage" ( there are people though in India who do the literal spawning of koi , and its senbetsu !) Unlike in Europe , US, Japan and Indonesia , these birth pangs have long passed , and probably reached its full potential of Jumbo . What was happening back in the mid 1980's in Britian , is now happening in India. It may take us 10-20 years to reach potential . This hobby has many ifs and buts , that may understandably discourage , those that show little interset at first . I have come to reckon , that its only an intense interset in koi keeping with a perseverance , that can sustain this hobby or for that matter its business . Of course , money is the pillar that stands on the foundation of this interest . If one can stomach disappointments , and not get carried away with the success of koi keeping, i think , more or less , one has reached somewhere in this hobby.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tora Bora View Post


    Kindly do let me have your thoughts on the Nisai Tancho Showa , that we have bought recently . Photos enclosed . I am a bit concerned , its red streakings, has only marginally reduced , though its been put through a mild anti-bacterial course of 10 days in the QT. Its other mates bought along with it , however , have no red streaks . Probably will hold it in the QT for another 4-5 weeks , if the streakings persist , may have to try a stronger anti-bacterial medication. This koi costed us USD 500. May not grow to above 75- 80 cms , due to its stocky body line, but it has a nice cutting shoulder blade , and there is something about the attitude of this koi which made us like it instantly . The showa which is seen along with it , has a very muddy face, but a long spindled body line . Showas more often than not, are an enigma, hence, for exploring the unknown, did we decide ourselves for it. The two Kigoi are nice , and probably 4-5 months old. Always a welcome to have a few pale yellows to off-set the gosanke colors.

    Once again , thank you for the time and patience in guiding through.
    Tancho are much loved. I think everyone who keeps koi would make room for one, except for the fear that the maruten will fade. In young tosai there are a comparative abundance of Tancho. Most lose the maruten before they are even a full year old, and most of those left lose it before they are nisai. There are few still possessing the red circle by the time they are three or four years old. Nearly everyone has either personally experienced the disappointment of the faded maruten, or has a friend who has. So, it is common to see a higher price on a Tancho that has made it to nisai than the fish otherwise would command. The rarity factor comes into play.

    With your Tancho Showa I cannot tell much about the sumi from the photo. It is well distributed, and still developing. Are the scales where the sumi has come in densely black? Or, are they charcoal black? The more intensely black the better. Hopefully the black comes together and does not remain only partially developed.

    Focusing on the maruten, the pigment seems thin. However, that is not the same as saying that it will fade away. There are Tancho Showa with relatively thin pigment that keep the maruten 'forever'. It is not as impressive as a thick, dense maruten, but can endure. The future of the fish then becomes all about the sumi and shiroji. The denser the black and more brilliant the white, the more attractive the koi. The maruten is then an adornment which highlights the whole fish, even if the pigment is not dense. The first signs of fading of a maruten can usually be found along the edges. As best I can tell, the edges are smooth and sharp except in one area on the right side of the fish. I cannot tell much from the photo. This is a point of concern that bears watching.

    Tancho Showa are very popular. I think part of the popularity is because if the maruten fades, one can still have a nice Shiro Utsuri, rather than being left with a shiromuji or shiro Bekko.

    I very much like Tancho. However, I do not get a Tancho Kohaku because koi in my pond are prone to getting shimmies. So, I look at Tancho Sanke and Tancho Showa. The Tancho Sanke available usually have far too much sumi for my taste, or a body structure destined to remain small; and the Tancho Showa either have too little sumi, low quality sumi, or bad body form (but still cost more!). So, I keep waiting for the right one to come along. When she does, I hope there is a spot open in the pond for her.

  9. #9
    Sansai
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    Hi Mike ,

    Both my wife and me really enjoy reading your posts . A sense of fairness and crystal clarity comes through it . I guess its the coolness of thought and the experience with koi that speaks through your posts.

    For this particular tancho showa , we are hoping its sumi does not become lacquer like , and remains partially faded. It gives this koi a very commanding , yet easy going look. The photograph doesn't do justice . In a video clip that i have of the tanco showa , this perspective of viewing comes to the fore. Will try up loading the video clip. Looking forward to your insights. Thanks

    PS : Our very best, that an excellent Tancho Showa finds its way across to you.

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