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Thread: Genetics refinement question

  1. #11
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    The Japanese refer to refinement as meaning the farthest possible from wild type carp. Some examples of refine would be:
    Solid color koi less refined that patterned koi.
    Lateral pattern less refined than Dorsal pattern
    One step less refined than multi-step
    Niigata gin run less refined than Hiroshima gin rin.

    Beyond this a higher quality koi would be considered more refined than a lower quality koi.

  2. #12
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Thanks Ray, Do you know the word the Japanese use for “refinement”? The context might be instructive (kind of like “nishiki” = brocaded > Kimono sash).

    As I understand it “refinement” has an objective component in that it easy to see (like better red in the kobayashi showa). But that objectivity is set by the subjective:“love of nishikigoi”. Nishikigoi spring forth from the humor of peasant art to become the refined luxuries we afford ourselves. To the extent that nishikigoi are art forms “Refinement means the farthest from wildtype carp” is an aesthetic component (?).

  3. #13
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    I like Rob's 'genealogy vs genetics' thingy...

    Using Ray's thoughts- If Kohaku is 'more refined' as result of being less difficult to refine because of being only red and white, how does Sanke and Showa become numbers 2 and 3? Wouldn't there be less gene sequence with other varieties- say Utsuri? For me I think Sanke is 'more refined' as a matter of simply time and the cull process more than an easier gene sequence...

    I still don't think I'm asking the question in a way everyone understands. I believe that the Japanese basically stumbled into this map of gene pool, I don't believe it was a calculated en devour using genetics. Like Rob said, the 'art' of selective breeding is utilized far more than actual genetics. Imo we have what we have today as a matter of time and endurance- it's not a scientific approach. A geneticist would laugh at the process. Geneticists like a reproducible, scientific approach. Selecting oyagoi is not a scientific approach- in fact is the opposite- it is based on trial and error and guess work. And a lot of time....

    And that's all fine. The reason for the post is that I am curious. I'm wondering what is the next 'more refined' variety. Will there be a big 4 instead of a big 3??? After all, there was once only a big 1 (Kohaku) and then there was a big 2 (Sanke). Now we have the big 3 (Kohaku, Sanke and Showa.) So why is there a stop in 'refinement' at Showa? Why isn't there a big 4??? Is there a genetic reason for this or is it just a matter of time before we have what will be the 4th 'refined' variety?

  4. #14
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    I like Rob's 'genealogy vs genetics' thingy...

    Using Ray's thoughts- If Kohaku is 'more refined' as result of being less difficult to refine because of being only red and white, how does Sanke and Showa become numbers 2 and 3? Wouldn't there be less gene sequence with other varieties- say Utsuri? For me I think Sanke is 'more refined' as a matter of simply time and the cull process more than an easier gene sequence...

    I still don't think I'm asking the question in a way everyone understands. I believe that the Japanese basically stumbled into this map of gene pool, I don't believe it was a calculated en devour using genetics. Like Rob said, the 'art' of selective breeding is utilized far more than actual genetics. Imo we have what we have today as a matter of time and endurance- it's not a scientific approach. A geneticist would laugh at the process. Geneticists like a reproducible, scientific approach. Selecting oyagoi is not a scientific approach- in fact is the opposite- it is based on trial and error and guess work. And a lot of time....

    And that's all fine. The reason for the post is that I am curious. I'm wondering what is the next 'more refined' variety. Will there be a big 4 instead of a big 3??? After all, there was once only a big 1 (Kohaku) and then there was a big 2 (Sanke). Now we have the big 3 (Kohaku, Sanke and Showa.) So why is there a stop in 'refinement' at Showa? Why isn't there a big 4??? Is there a genetic reason for this or is it just a matter of time before we have what will be the 4th 'refined' variety?
    THere is a lot of Japanese culture and history involved. Bit of background on the term gosanke it relates to the three families of the shoguns who ruled Japan from about 1100 to 1860. So I doubt it is likely that the Japanese will add another variety since gosanke refers to the big three shogun dynasties anymore than we will add another president to Mt. Rushmore. So there wasn't 1 then 2 then 3 big three nishikgoi varieties. At some point maybe 60 or so years ago the breeders started using the term Gosanke to refer to Kohaku, Sanke, and Showa.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  5. #15
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    Using Ray's thoughts- If Kohaku is 'more refined' as result of being less difficult to refine because of being only red and white, how does Sanke and Showa become numbers 2 and 3? Wouldn't there be less gene sequence with other varieties- say Utsuri? For me I think Sanke is 'more refined' as a matter of simply time and the cull process more than an easier gene sequence...
    You missed his point. Kohaku is more difficult because it is only red and white.

    It is not just genes or lack of genes. It is genetic "selection".

  6. #16
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    I see. I have my answer, thanks.

  7. #17
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    It has proved to be very difficult to create a true genetic variety of koi. There are none. Not even Kohaku breed true. Those shiromuji and higoi establish that Kohaku still has a long way to go. The lack of uniformity in a spawn from 'like' oyagoi can be extreme. Breed two Shunrai and there may not be a single Shunrai in the offspring. Go closer to the root and breed two Asagi and the chances are good that you will be overwhelmed with Asagi, albeit few of quality. But, take two Asagi-like koi that come out of a program of breeding in Kohaku genetics and the variety of offspring will amaze. Koi are not like dogs. It is culling that creates an impression that they are.
    ricshaw likes this.

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