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Thread: ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi

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    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi

    So back in June some of the ZNA Potomac and ZNA Tri-State members headed to Quality Koi to participate in a shiro study. Mat had a batch of 5-7 inch shiros for us to look at. They were broken into 9 different groups. Heavy sumi, hardly any sumi, yellow, motoguro, no motoguro and some others (hopefully some one else took notes). So at that time we were offered a shiro slot for $300 (only for full ZNA members). All of the shiros we looked at would be placed in a mud pond for the season and then we would pull the pond and each get to pick our shiros. The picking order was drawn at random. I had pick 7 and pick 26. So today we pulled the ZNA pond. They went in at 5-7 inches and came out at 15-18 inches. Here are my two. I'll post some more pics of the event in a bit.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0138.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0152.jpg  
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    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Some more pics
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0027.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0015.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0037.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0036.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0099.jpg  

    ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0088.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0064.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0062.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0050.jpg   ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0108.jpg  

    ZNA shiro study at Quality Koi-dsc_0125.jpg  
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    Oyagoi Flounder's Avatar
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    Wow, those are really nice looking utsuri and a bargain at that price.

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    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Jim, like your second one. Curious if the genetics are from INC and his marusome sumi?

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    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnorth View Post
    So back in June some of the ZNA Potomac and ZNA Tri-State members headed to Quality Koi to participate in a shiro study. Mat had a batch of 5-7 inch shiros for us to look at. They were broken into 9 different groups. Heavy sumi, hardly any sumi, yellow, motoguro, no motoguro and some others (hopefully some one else took notes). So at that time we were offered a shiro slot for $300 (only for full ZNA members). All of the shiros we looked at would be placed in a mud pond for the season and then we would pull the pond and each get to pick our shiros. The picking order was drawn at random. I had pick 7 and pick 26. So today we pulled the ZNA pond. They went in at 5-7 inches and came out at 15-18 inches. Here are my two. I'll post some more pics of the event in a bit.
    Thanks for posting. I also have a couple of utsuries which I put in my mud pond in June. Matt picked me a selection of fish so hope they are all there when I harvest the mud pond next week. I did see some of the showa and sanke. Just shipment quarantine can set fish back but will measure them when they come out.
    I do not think that mine will be that size but were 9to 10 in going in.
    Regards
    Eugene

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    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Jim: What can you say about Shiro Utsuri development? Any observations to share?

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    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Jim: What can you say about Shiro Utsuri development? Any observations to share?
    I'll have to see if I can get the "before" bowl pics we have. The keys that Mat was focusing in on was some of well known "facts" about shiro tosai. Like that yellow heads mean male. Wasn't the case... Finished means male...once again not true and on and on. Let me see if I can get some of those before photos.
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    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnorth View Post
    I'll have to see if I can get the "before" bowl pics we have. The keys that Mat was focusing in on was some of well known "facts" about shiro tosai. Like that yellow heads mean male. Wasn't the case... Finished means male...once again not true and on and on. Let me see if I can get some of those before photos.
    Yep. Last Spring I started a thread about selecting Shiro Utsuri, asking about their development. I really did not have an understanding of them and I did not learn a whole lot I could use from what others posted. After going to NKF for the harvest and seeing the 555 Shiro Utsuri nisai come out of the mud, and checking out the small ones in the greenhouse tanks, I still do not understand Shiro Utsuri. Whether tosai are yellowish seems completely irrelevant. Whether there is considerable sumi or not seems irrelevant most of the time, unless truly extreme. I do think quality of sumi is a key factor, but it takes a very good eye to distinguish it in tosai. Trying to figure out skin quality while ignoring yellowish color is a challenge beyond my eye, which means that I'm at a complete loss of what to think about a large percentage of a batch of tosai. Pattern is of least importance in judging, or so we are told. (I tend to think the impact of pattern with SU is greater than with other varieties, even if the judges are trying not to give it too much weight.) But, pattern in SU is very important to most hobbyists. With SU, the pattern displayed as tosai seems fickle. The basic structure of the pattern may remain as nisai, but sumi coming up in other places and down in some can change the aspect quite a bit. And, that pretty much leaves body form.

    It did seem to me that as nisai, SU could be sexed with a high percentage of accuracy based on whether the shiroji was truly white or yellowish. But, that idea comes from observing a limited group of fish and as nisai sexing them is not particularly difficult anyway.

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    Tategoi mtsklar's Avatar
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    As much as I have studied shire Utsuri; after reading your post Mike, I find myself saying "you read my mind". Two years ago I purchased 3 shiro. One with heavy sumi fully up, one buried sumi for the future, and one somewhere in the middle of those two. The koi with full sumi was not favored by the judges at the last show. The koi in the middle is yellow, and the shiro for the "future" has very nice shiroji. Perhaps another few years will teach me something.

  10. #10
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I did my study on SU a few moons ago. Like any fish for show, I always looked for the best skin because they either have it or they don't. my favorite line to select from was "panda" from omosako. It would have some sumi up, enough to judge the quality and some yet to appesr. Since then I have studied alot of other breeders. seki, where i went thru 200 of his tosai with mr Kodama, he sharing what to look for in this man's fish as they were friends for a very long time. With his advice I remember pattern wise trying to discern no more than half the face to develop black in the future and like any good kohaku, looking for a nice white odome. I've shared before on what to look for with motoguro, all black fins with white leading edge for example will in time, reduce and become very nicely sized. earlier I asked on a thread about Mat's fish if they had come from INC's marusome sumi. reason I did was to be able to contribute some knowledge on how the sumi develops and what to look for. It's different than other lines. You don't hear much about igarashi kazudo's SU. A decade back I was able to get into his tategoi SU. The tosai were all jumbo and all white. Second year as he was preparing to put them in the mud he would find enough sumi showing to judge the quality. I was told that it was when they reached three years old, that you could determine what you were buying. So it all comes down to knowing your lines, and keeping up with what the breeder is doing.Not as much now as before, but it's still good to chech the head length with the length of the body. This keeps you away from what I call a football looking end result. You look at the head and measure it's length with your eye, and then take that length and run from the tip of the nose to the end of the tail. You need a minimum of 4 and a half lengthd to avoid a football shaped result in the end. I could keep rattling along but hopefully there are a few things that I've shared that will help you in your tosai selection. With those tosai that have very little sumi showing at present, get permission from the dealer/breeder to roll the fish over as if attempting to sex, and notice the finage underneath. If you fins sumi showing then it's presence indicates a better chance of more sumi developing in the future. Clear fins indicate more of what you see is what you get. Sumi in the tail and dorsal at a young age is also a hint of the strength existing with potential in the future. Lastly finding motoguro on each side that mimicks each other for amount and shape indicates a strong possibility to have a siyetrical patern develop on both sides. there is something very shiek about good black and white.
    Tosai_Sunny and Lila like this.
    Dick Benbow

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