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Thread: Thoughts on a 13" showa

  1. #11
    Nisai APOLONASGR36's Avatar
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    When this picture was taken? If it was taken recently (like 3 -4 weeks ago ) then this is not a tosai. I do not think this is a 4 -5 months old fish at 13" (33 cm ). If it was and at this size (highly unlikely) then the pigment would have been much more immature and stretched out appearing much weaker and pale. This is a small 17-18 month old fish with great skin quality and an average to below average body shape.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I do not know the age of this koi. I would not base an age estimate on the length of Purdin's tosai. Being in Louisiana, they can spawn earlier in the year and the mudponds reach optimal growth temperatures in mid-Spring, not mid-Summer. So, it could be 6-7 months with much of that time at optimal growth conditions.

    It is warmer here in Orlando than in Louisiana. Over a dozen years ago I had an unintended mid-Spring spawning in my old liner pond. By Fall there was a doitsu red & white (lateral patterning, so not Kohaku) that was over 18 inches. Nothing special had been done. I took it to a local club meeting to give away. Many thought the 'little guy' had to be older. They were used to seeing tosai from Japan be much smaller. In warm climates what is labeled 'forced growth' elsewhere is natural growth. ...Great for growing up the small ones; not so good for maintaining the pigment quality of old big gals.

  3. #13
    Nisai APOLONASGR36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I do not know the age of this koi. I would not base an age estimate on the length of Purdin's tosai. Being in Louisiana, they can spawn earlier in the year and the mudponds reach optimal growth temperatures in mid-Spring, not mid-Summer. So, it could be 6-7 months with much of that time at optimal growth conditions.

    It is warmer here in Orlando than in Louisiana. Over a dozen years ago I had an unintended mid-Spring spawning in my old liner pond. By Fall there was a doitsu red & white (lateral patterning, so not Kohaku) that was over 18 inches. Nothing special had been done. I took it to a local club meeting to give away. Many thought the 'little guy' had to be older. They were used to seeing tosai from Japan be much smaller. In warm climates what is labeled 'forced growth' elsewhere is natural growth. ...Great for growing up the small ones; not so good for maintaining the pigment quality of old big gals.
    Mike look at the koi again carefully. The beni is too mature for a very large and very young tosai. The body build is also too developed for a young tosai and it does not have the proportions front to back of a naturally large fish. The 1/2 rear end is too short in proportion to the front 1/2. This koi will not be a large koi and it will not have a balanced body even as it gets larger.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I agree that it will not likely grow to jumbo size. The bone structure is not there. But, I do not think growing to 13 inches over a 6-7 month growing period is particularly unusual for what Purdin accomplishes in their climate, so I would not focus on size as indicating it is an older fish. The pigment is another matter. It does seem more mature than one would expect. There is a similarity with other Purdin tosai I have seen, except more red, which can be the trick of the camera, but the tosai Kohaku I've seen in person have been around 10-11 months old and have gone through a cool winter period. I've always seen them in the late February/early March period when it is Spring in Louisiana. When I next see McGurk, I'll ask him about the pigment development in his Kohaku.

  5. #15
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Is it just me or is anyone else having a problem viewing the pics of the kohaku in this thread? It just keeps spinning and pics never come up. Don't know if it's my ISP or not. Though I haven't been having any problem on other websites.

  6. #16
    Nisai APOLONASGR36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Is it just me or is anyone else having a problem viewing the pics of the kohaku in this thread? It just keeps spinning and pics never come up. Don't know if it's my ISP or not. Though I haven't been having any problem on other websites.

    No it's not just you. I actually have the same problem now.

  7. #17
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by APOLONASGR36 View Post
    No it's not just you. I actually have the same problem now.
    Thanks. Time then to contact da webmaster:-)

  8. #18
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I've repaired the database that points to the attachment files. Can you all see them now?
    Thanks Brian. I can see them now.

  9. #19
    Nisai APOLONASGR36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I've repaired the database that points to the attachment files. Can you all see them now?
    It's all good Brian. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

  10. #20
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I agree that it will not likely grow to jumbo size. The bone structure is not there. But, I do not think growing to 13 inches over a 6-7 month growing period is particularly unusual for what Purdin accomplishes in their climate, so I would not focus on size as indicating it is an older fish. The pigment is another matter. It does seem more mature than one would expect. There is a similarity with other Purdin tosai I have seen, except more red, which can be the trick of the camera, but the tosai Kohaku I've seen in person have been around 10-11 months old and have gone through a cool winter period. I've always seen them in the late February/early March period when it is Spring in Louisiana. When I next see McGurk, I'll ask him about the pigment development in his Kohaku.
    When I take a pic of my kohaku, the pictures make the beni look more contiguous, hardly showing the hoshi. This makes the koi look more finished, when it's really not. I don't know if an SLR in the hands of a betterr photographer would capture the koi in a more true-to-life light, or whether it's the limitation of the camera optics or of our viewing screens.

    The color gamut of real life cannot be matched by any camera nor by viewing screens, this is something we have implicitly, if not explicitly, know and accept. But our eyes adjust to depiction of color easily, in relative terms. A beni may not be as saturated in our screen as in real life, but it's acceptable for us. What matters more is the contrast.

    If the hoshi is not distinguishable from the background beni in a beni step, when viewed thru our screens, we can see it as one solid beni and draw conclusions that may not be accurate. Which is why it's right not to trust pictures so much. We could say a beni is finished, or we could say the koi is male. And that's why I appreciate Mike's not being sure of anything that has to do with pictures dealing with beni:-)

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