Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 52
Like Tree4Likes

Thread: What have you done for your Koi Lately?

  1. #41
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    700
    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Got a 40 pound box of Tomigai Tategoi delivered.
    Wow! Lucky koi! get to eat filet-mignon.

  2. #42
    MCA
    MCA is offline
    Honmei MCA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    2,574
    Well, it doesn't make good sense to spend thousands on a pond system, thousands more on the koi, and then feed mediocre food or have poor water quality.

  3. #43
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    700
    Quote Originally Posted by Akai-San View Post
    Glutten for punishment. I just introduced a couple new Dainichi male tosai (Gon offspring) to grow-out this year. 14"-15" size.



    Well it has been nine months and these two male koi have not met my expectations for growth. I finally bowled these two this weekend because they didn't seem like they were keeping up with the other kohaku males that I "still" have. Under the same conditions of my first grow-out experiment (kohaku), these two koi have only grown to 16.5" and 18". Given our climate in Hawaii, I was hoping that both male tosai would get at least 5+ inches of growth by now. They have bulked up a bit (but still scrawny to me), length wise it appears they are challenged. I was thinking that it might be my feeding regiment for the koi that provided the results. I was not pushing a lot of feed during the day, even with the auto-feeders. We'll see how the summer goes...

    With the Kohaku grow-out experience a couple years ago, I learned a lot about how tosai grow. In fact out of the three kohaku I started with, the smallest male koi is now the largest with a very strong body (almost female-like).

  4. #44
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    If you are pleased with these males except for their growth in length, then I think you are correct to continue with them.

    Just because they were 'jumbo' as tosai does not mean they will become larger than 'normal' as mature koi. A nisai male in the 16-18" (40-45cm) range is a good 'normal' size. Remember the oft-quoted observation of Toshio Sakai that tosai not given fast growth winter-keeping eventually catch up to the ones grown to jumbo size as tosai. You may well be seeing the reverse. Although grown to jumbo size as tosai, the rate of growth in the second year has slowed, getting them closer to 'normal'.

    The keys to maximizing growth of young koi remain the same: Feed as much as the koi want to eat, give them lots of fresh water and temperatures in the upper 70sF.

  5. #45
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    If the goal is to maximize growth, feeding more would not hurt. But to grow with good conformation and with good color development, I would add that the quality of the food and that of water goes hand in hand. Too much food could lead easily to a bulging belly, and for this reason I prefer to feed less. But if food is of good quality, it will not hinder growth. There is less waste, filters work less, and water that has good chemistry (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH), has low pathogenic bacteria levels, and highly-aerated, would be just as important in promoting growth.

    When I was starting out, I naively went by the label in the koi food package and thought feeding at 3% of koi body weight was the way to go. I'm glad I read through this forum and learned that wasn't so. I feed at 0.5% of body weight and my koi has grown at a good clip and doesn't look malnourished. In fact, they have developed quite well and have good conformation.

    When filters can't keep up with either of mechanical of biological filtration, I would advise to feed less. Feeding more than the filter's capability will always backfire, as it compromises the water quality. Poor water quality leads to stress, and stress is anti-growth and anti-color development. If you find you're feeding too little to satisfy your filter's capability, then you need to either upgrade your filter's capability or to reduce the number of koi in your pond.

    Many times people just cross their fingers and hope they don't have to adapt, the problem is koi grow and their needs become more demanding. A pond crisis will eventually develop, and the crisis will dictate the direction to relieve the stress. The most promising and largest and most colorful koi will die, and that is when the pond keeper gets it.

  6. #46
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    700
    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    0.5% (half a percent) of koi body weight. Therefore the feeding gauge for a 10 pound koi is to be fed at a rate of .05 pounds (.8 oz) per day? per feeding? Sounds like a small amount, but I've never weighed the koi food. How big is a ten pound koi? 24+inches.

    3% of koi body weight for a 10 pound koi would be .3 pounds (4.8 oz) of feed per day. This does sound like a lot if the small bag of food is 17.6 oz. At this rate, with 4 ten pound koi in a pond, one would use one 17.6 oz. bag everyday. Or a whole 11 pound bag of food in 10-11 days. Really selling a lot of koi food at 3% of koi body weight.

    I've heard feeding small amounts frequently is a good practice as koi don't have stomachs. But they have bellies??? How many times a day is optimal? I feed in morning with Large sinking Kenzen and Hikari Wheat Germ mixed with Staple during the day via automatic feeder (small amounts). When I come home in the evening, I feed silk worm fused feed and treats so I can work them in on hand feeding. I can only gingerly hand feed a couple of the koi.

    I have been doing water changes twice a week now as it is getting warmer in the islands. Water parameters have been good 0-0-0, I just keep fighting with my pH getting below 7.0 (hence more frequent water changes). I surely do need larger facilities to grow-out the koi so I will have limitations and decreased expectations as the koi get larger. Although I have Rehomed a couple older koi it has been and will continue to be difficult for me to let them go.

  7. #47
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Most of the time, principles of aquaculture get applied to raising koi, with little room to make exceptions. Stuff such as feeding rate and FCR (feed conversion ratio), and even amino acid profiles for protein in feed, need to take into account the special needs of koi: slower growth rate to give skin more time to develop, additional amino acids (such as glycine) for enhancing skin and connective tissue develooment. FCR is not as important as we're not plumping up koi to be sold to make money by making it as heavy with the least amount of input. I would rather let the koi grow leisurely, look at how I'm managing its confirmation, and then see if I'm letting the beni plate stretch too quickly. Incorporation of colorants into food need to be optimized to achieve the balance between enhancing the beni without impairing the shiroji. And taking account the climate and season and water temperatures are important things to consider. Too many koi food are treated as one-size-fits-all. It may be optimized for a particular season in a temperate region, but would fall short in tropical regions.

    I run the risk of not making my koi grow to its maximum potential, but I feel validated whenever I see a huge 1m+ koi in a koi show. Sure, it could have won a reserve GC, but I don't covet it. The size almost always comes with a caveat: It won because of its size, never mind how ugly it looks. It is a given.

    Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

  8. #48
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Koi Weight vs. Length: Koi Weight Based on Length | Clearpond

    More, google "koi length vs. weight."

  9. #49
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by Akai-San View Post
    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    0.5% (half a percent) of koi body weight. Therefore the feeding gauge for a 10 pound koi is to be fed at a rate of .05 pounds (.8 oz) per day? per feeding? Sounds like a small amount, but I've never weighed the koi food. How big is a ten pound koi? 24+inches.

    3% of koi body weight for a 10 pound koi would be .3 pounds (4.8 oz) of feed per day. This does sound like a lot if the small bag of food is 17.6 oz. At this rate, with 4 ten pound koi in a pond, one would use one 17.6 oz. bag everyday. Or a whole 11 pound bag of food in 10-11 days. Really selling a lot of koi food at 3% of koi body weight.

    I've heard feeding small amounts frequently is a good practice as koi don't have stomachs. But they have bellies??? How many times a day is optimal? I feed in morning with Large sinking Kenzen and Hikari Wheat Germ mixed with Staple during the day via automatic feeder (small amounts). When I come home in the evening, I feed silk worm fused feed and treats so I can work them in on hand feeding. I can only gingerly hand feed a couple of the koi.

    I have been doing water changes twice a week now as it is getting warmer in the islands. Water parameters have been good 0-0-0, I just keep fighting with my pH getting below 7.0 (hence more frequent water changes). I surely do need larger facilities to grow-out the koi so I will have limitations and decreased expectations as the koi get larger. Although I have Rehomed a couple older koi it has been and will continue to be difficult for me to let them go.
    Keep in mind that feeding by a percentage of the koi body rate originates in aquaculture where the goal is the overall weight gain of a crop of fish, not maximizing individual fish. The koikeeper can customize to meet their goals. That is why I suggested feeding as much as the koi will eat as often as you can feed them. If relying on an auto-feeder, you have to decide in advance how much and how frequently you feed. If you feed while by the pond, you can adjust according to their eagerness for food. You will see when they are no longer very interested and then you stop tossing in pellets. Since these are males, I'd not be concerned about them getting 'hanging bellies'. If the skeletal structure of a male is 'right', it is not an issue.

    As to optimal feeding frequency, I'd say: a few pellets every five minutes from sunrise to sunset. ...The more frequent the better, but adjust the amount so excess food does not degrade the water or get wasted feeding the filters.

    In my experience, something around 3-5% of body weight holds true for very small koi, but by the time time they are nisai they are consuming less. And it continues to decrease as they become mature. Again, the percentages are all about aquaculture goals, not customizing one's practices to maximize individual fish.

  10. #50
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Right there with you Mike.

    What I find most difficult is reining in the appetite of the "gorgers." They like to skim the surface, like to be close to people, are very friendly, and live to eat. They eat more than their share, leaving little for the rest, especially the more timid koi. They easily develop drop belly, and because of them the whole pond population has to go through long fasting periods. On their account!

    Yet I love their personality. They are why I consider koi pets than just trophy koi.

    To rein in their appetite, I find it necessary to wet my floating pellets thoroughly enough without them being too drench, and to coat them with a layer of bentonite. Then I flatten them into flat wafers, and throw them in the water. They sink slowly, unlike how sinking pellets sink, and these are consumed more equitably among the koi. It keeps the glutton from overeating and from developing that belly, and allows timid koi to eat more.

    Fed on my continuous belt feeder over a period of 8 hours over the day, the koi can always be seen by the belt feeder. Since I've had this system, I find that I'm able to keep drop bellies from coming back, although a few koi still are plump.

    It is believed that drop bellies are genetic, but I wonder if it has more to do with the eating behavior, in a tendency to gorge, rather than with the koi's inherent shape. If koi are kept from gorging, would the koi still develop a drop belly? And if a koi is never fed too much to develop a drop belly in its early years, would it look just as nice in body conformation befitting a tategoi?

    There is a lot of experimentation and observation that can be done in the hobby. Food and feeding is enough grist for the mill. And this where passion defines how a koi keeper would not mind making the effort to tweak rather to settle with what's packaged.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com