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Thread: What would you expect from kumonryu x doits shiro utsuri

  1. #1
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    What would you expect from kumonryu x doits shiro utsuri

    Does anyone know if kumonryu has been crossed with doits shiro utsuri very much? Is there a decent chance of getting something interesting as a result?

  2. #2
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Mitch, The issue I see is with you throwing in Kumonryu it could be years before you see what the Sumi is going to do.


    I took a Kumonryu from Charles mud pond spawning last fall (2012). The Koi was solid black except a small dot of white on the head, here it is a year later. I know you know all this, but wanted to share.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What would you expect from kumonryu x doits shiro utsuri-7-13-14in2.jpg  

  3. #3
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    Mitch, The issue I see is with you throwing in Kumonryu it could be years before you see what the Sumi is going to do.


    I took a Kumonryu from Charles mud pond spawning last fall (2012). The Koi was solid black except a small dot of white on the head, here it is a year later. I know you know all this, but wanted to share.
    My kumonryu took a different path. She went from having a lot of white to very little, even though it was already 22" or so when I got her. So it's pretty hard to predict how the sum will behave. Top picture is how she looks today.
    What would you expect from kumonryu x doits shiro utsuri-kumonryu-2.jpg
    What would you expect from kumonryu x doits shiro utsuri-kumonryu-1.jpg

  4. #4
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Question, By doing this what would you hope for ?

  5. #5
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    Question, By doing this what would you hope for ?
    Stabilized killer whale pattern. If wishes were horses then dreamers would ride.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    nothing is less stable then adding Kumonryu sumi if your wish is to produce Shiro utsuri.

    Not too long ago I was at Kodama's in Hawaii and while there I was asked to help in the selection of a matsukawabake. (scaled version of kumonryu).
    First question I asked was where the individual's state of residence was at? LOL Got the most incredible facial contortion of disbelief. So what does that have to do with which one to pick? Turns out he lived in hawaii, so I selected one from 6 others that retained the most black. It was summertime at the time and unless he wanted a fish that would go all white in the heat, he had to be careful with his selection. If he had lived in the states that had more cold temps to contend with, one with a lighter pattern of less sumi would have been a better buy for them. Same can be said for the doutsu version.

    If it was me, I'd continue to work with doutsu SU's to get the pattern I wanted, as I looked for stability. I live a few short miles from the beaches of Puget Sound, and Killer whales oft drift thru around the time salmon return to their home streams. One day I was out in a 14 foot boat fishing for salmon when a pod went thru. They were lead by a giant male, who eyed me suspiciously as they passed closely by me. I slipped the engine in reverse and slowly backed out of their way. Scary as much as beautiful.
    Tosai_Sunny likes this.
    Dick Benbow

  7. #7
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    There are two important parts to this cross. First is the sumi. Many kumonryu are hypermelanistic. I find the cross of that sumi type produces more and better types when out-crossed to a white based koi. When crossed to most other black based fish, the percentage of black / dark chagoi / dark ochiba types changes from around 50% to as much as 90%. As a student of my own test crosses I believe these outcomes are a function of double and single factor genetics. The second part has to do with the genes associated with the sumi / shiro swap that occurs in this variety. Not all kumonryu or matsukawabake exhibit the degree of change in the same way. Some move toward more black, some move toward more white, some swap more than others and some exhibit a degree of stability regardless of temperature changes.

  8. #8
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Thanks Bradley. Sounds like you think a doits bekko might cross better with kumonryu than doits shiro. I remember Joe P. at Blackwater Creek talking about an expensive doits platinum he bought to cross with kumonryu to produce less solid black I think. I guess you might get some kumonryu and also some kikokuryu from the platinum. IME you often get doitsu platinum when you breed doitsu lemon hariwake even if they have yellow when they are young. I haven't bred kikusui, but would assume you also get doitsu platinum in the spawn. So using a doitsu platinum you might get some kin kikokuryu or possibly a few beni kikokuryu among others.

    So when they are just trying to produce good kumonryu and not experimenting with new crosses, what do the best Japanese kumonryu breeders use? Kumonryu x kumonryu or do they use kumonryu x doitsu platinum like Joe P.?

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