Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 37
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Coming of beni matsukawabake

  1. #11
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Mike, have you noticed how the sumi sometimes falls on doitsu showa and doitsu hikari utsurimono? There are enough around where they have a kumonryu or Ki Kokuryu look to them. If mine was a doitsu, I think our conversation would lead that way. Yes, I would bench it as a showa for now. And it may well hold more of the showa traits in the years to come. Only the time will reveal in what direction it travels. With the outcrosses required in this variety development, there are a few that have a look away from the destination or a mix of both at the juvenile stage. As the sumi moves, some move from one variety to the other. However, in the end, they will need to have a distinct look.
    I have read different versions of the original creation of Showa. One is that Showa came out of a cross of Ki Utsuri with Matsukawabake. (I'm sure the original was such a poor fish that few would recognize it as Showa today.) Kumonryu is, of course, referred to as a doitsu version of Matsukawabake. But, 'doitsu' means more than being scaleless. Lateral patterning is a trait that comes with the scaleless trait, such as the lateral patterning of Hi on Shusui and sumi on Kumonryu. Based on phenotype, a Beni Kumonryu and a Doitsu Showa are distinguishable mainly by the type of patterning of the sumi. They are both 3-color koi with a black base. Logically, if there is lateral patterning of sumi, the fish is Beni Kumonryu. If there is wrapping sumi, the fish is doitsu Showa. But, we apply the label of 'kumonryu' to more than the fish with lateral sumi patterning imitating the dragon from which the varietal name is derived. It is the 'coming and going' behavior of the sumi, the defining trait of Matsukawabake, that we give the most weight. There is also a difference in atmosphere that is unmistakeable, but I think that has much to do with the refinement of Showa today compared to Beni Kumonryu. I'm not so sure we would notice much of a difference in the atmosphere of these varieties if we were considering the original Showa. The genetic base is so closely related. ....Does the ultimate refined Beni Kumonryu become so like Doitsu Showa that they are largely indistinguishable on a particular day? ...just mental meandering on my part.

  2. #12
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,087
    As an aside, the conversation of the coming and going of sumi, may well fit what we feel we see, but this is a black based fish. I prefer to look at this variety as the seasonal coming and going of the shiro. I add my own poetic interpretation here - that matsukawabake reflect the coming and going of snow along a river of sumi.

    In reality, the coming and going is a switching of gene expression.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,087
    In the original descriptions of matsukawabake, the impression is of an asagi-type of koi with sumi that comes and goes through the seasons - hence one of the first names ascribed was called Bake Asagi. In my project to produce beni matsukawabake (scaled version of beni kumonyu), I get large numbers of versions similar to this one. These are usually culled as I really looking for a dorsally located beni. I kept this one as an example that caries a look that might hark back to the original type - while sill young, looks like it could be an interesting koi.

    Coming of beni matsukawabake-bake-asagi.jpg

  4. #14
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,087
    Here is the type I am looking for. A young beni matsukawabake, settling into more sumi for autumn. Each photo left to right shows the change over the past 12 months. For those not familiar with the variety, the beauty in this koi is the ever changing location of the sumi (black) that comes, goes and moves around with the change of seasons. Then there is the uniqueness, with the addition of the dorsal located beni (red), a feature rarely seen in matsukawabake.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Coming of beni matsukawabake-update-compare-02052014.jpg  

  5. #15
    Jumbo Tosai_Sunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    782
    Very interesting fish! Looks like you are very close to achieving your goal. With so many fry in any giving spawn, it must be a nightmare for you to track each individual fish with so much changes. On your last photo lineup, in addition to the sumi, the beni appears to be changing as well. Will the beni change back?

    Best of luck!
    Sunny

  6. #16
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,087
    While there has been some beni loss towards the back part, most of the red has been covered up by the sumi. The beni is a non-spreading type - ie not secondary hi and not asagi or shusui derived, so the loss will not return.

    As far as the study goes, each spawn I select a manageable number to follow separately, so as to ensure some education on development. After a while I get to know them beyond the pattern and can pick a koi by fin shape, head shape, body shape, the look of the eye, and occassionally using behaviour.
    Tosai_Sunny likes this.

  7. #17
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    In the original descriptions of matsukawabake, the impression is of an asagi-type of koi with sumi that comes and goes through the seasons - hence one of the first names ascribed was called Bake Asagi. In my project to produce beni matsukawabake (scaled version of beni kumonyu), I get large numbers of versions similar to this one. These are usually culled as I really looking for a dorsally located beni. I kept this one as an example that caries a look that might hark back to the original type - while sill young, looks like it could be an interesting koi.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bake asagi.jpg 
Views:	214 
Size:	61.0 KB 
ID:	39489
    If there is Asagi-like Hi development on the abdomen and cheeks, you have a novel and potentially magnificent kawari deserving of a name. ...I'm wondering if there was such a one named by Dr. Kuroki.

  8. #18
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Here is the type I am looking for. A young beni matsukawabake, settling into more sumi for autumn. Each photo left to right shows the change over the past 12 months. For those not familiar with the variety, the beauty in this koi is the ever changing location of the sumi (black) that comes, goes and moves around with the change of seasons. Then there is the uniqueness, with the addition of the dorsal located beni (red), a feature rarely seen in matsukawabake.
    I see the progress in reaching your goal, but this is one only her mother (or father) would love! LOL.... A big step forward.

  9. #19
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,087
    The left side photo shows the koi without the beni, that is now spreading from the belly as one might expect to see in an Asagi. My understanding of 'bake', refers to change, so this kawari might best be described as a Bake Asagi.
    Coming of beni matsukawabake-bake-asagi-before-after.jpg

  10. #20
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Very interesting. I'll hope the red stays below the lateral line. If it does, 'she' will be unique. If it spreads upward too much, 'she' will look like a bad Showa.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 1 year old from beni matsukawabake spawn
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-31-2013, 07:36 AM
  2. Beni matsukawabake & Sumi danmoyo
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-01-2013, 04:49 AM
  3. New matsukawabake; what can I expect?
    By CarolinaGirl in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-14-2011, 02:35 PM
  4. Continuing Development of Beni Matsukawabake
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-29-2010, 02:43 AM
  5. Kawarimono-Matsukawabake
    By DomesticKoi.com in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-12-2009, 06:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com