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Thread: Momotaro Auction April 15-16

  1. #1
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Momotaro Auction April 15-16

    The last Momotaro auction until Fall will be a celebration. They do not say the festivities are for dealers only, but I'd assume it is. (Double check before going, if you are lucky enough to be in Japan then.) Eye candy in a few weeks. It will be interesting to see what the Showa offerings are:

    "Our Last auction for this season will be on 15th and 16th of April 2014.
    We will have Special Event to celebrate the 1st Momotaro bred koi
    to win Grand Champion at All Japan Koi Show 2014.
    This special Auction will be on the 16th
    and will feature high Class Jumbo Tosai guaranteed female.
    Additionally there will be open sales and an auction of other koi on the 15th.
    On the night of the 15th we will have a Party to celebrate
    winning the Grand Champion and also thanks give for all our supporters.
    So please joint us the event.
    The 2-day event will start from 14:00 on 15th with Open sales and auction.
    The celebration party will start at 18:00. The next day , the 16th, we will
    have the main auction from 10:00 am.
    We will update more detail for the event later
    Looking forward to seeing everyone soon."

  2. #2
    Tategoi mtsklar's Avatar
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    Mike Please work on bringing the Island Nation of Japan closer to our shores !

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Photos are now posted. A lot of jumbo tosai Showa are listed from multiple oyagoi. So much eye-candy to dream about their futures. Anyone wanting a male-only pond sure has a lot to choose from. Some awesome males are listed. Seeing how nice the female tosai are, I wonder about the ones held to raise to nisai. With the males, it seems to me more likely these include a greater proportion of the very best since it is rare to intentionally raise known males to nisai unless the fish has been identified as a potential parent.

    Momotaro koi

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    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Photos are now posted. A lot of jumbo tosai Showa are listed from multiple oyagoi. So much eye-candy to dream about their futures. Anyone wanting a male-only pond sure has a lot to choose from. Some awesome males are listed. Seeing how nice the female tosai are, I wonder about the ones held to raise to nisai. With the males, it seems to me more likely these include a greater proportion of the very best since it is rare to intentionally raise known males to nisai unless the fish has been identified as a potential parent.

    Momotaro koi
    Hi Mike,

    I know there are some male koi that grow very well but mostly dont achieve the size and girth of most equally high quality females.

    Now with regards to these special male auction momotaro tosaia, is it foolish to assume that these male would be able to grow bigger than the regular male? Many males would have sudden growth spurts in the first two years and then would just stop growing regardless how good their body conformation is.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Hi Mike,

    I know there are some male koi that grow very well but mostly dont achieve the size and girth of most equally high quality females.

    Now with regards to these special male auction momotaro tosaia, is it foolish to assume that these male would be able to grow bigger than the regular male? Many males would have sudden growth spurts in the first two years and then would just stop growing regardless how good their body conformation is.
    I would not assume that these males would grow to be like the 80+cm male koi we see win awards at the Shinkokai All-Japan show. Perhaps some can grow like that, perhaps not. It is a fairly common experience to see high grade males from jumbo bloodlines grow very nicely up to 60 or 65cm and then stop appreciable growth. But, a major reason to keep males is that they stay smaller and therefore can be raised well in a smaller pond, or in larger numbers. If my desire was to end up with a male in the 70-80cm range, I think my chances would be better selecting from among these than from the general run of males, but having a goal of 80cm males is sure to lead to a lot of disappointment. I think more important than ultimate size potential is to select based on the quality of the pigments and body form. The real challenge for me would be predicting whether the body at maturity will be 'full' rather than skinny. I have far too little experience to provide any reliable thoughts how to select male koi for future body form. There is a world of difference between a typical scrawny male body form and one that carries enough bulk to create a strong impression. Even male koi with pretty patterns need some fullness for the pattern to be appreciated in a top view. Just looking at the photos, some look rather thin despite the feeding regimen involved in raising them to jumbo tosai. Some have more fullness. Will those that seem more full continue to grow? Perhaps those are the ones that will end up the smallest in the group. I do not know. I would want to seek advice from someone with real experience with males before spending much.

  6. #6
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Mike and Homer, those are interesting thoughts about male koi. Growing male koi from tosai in an all-male pond would probably give us some answers. We can be closer to determining if without competing for food with females, male koi can successfully develop length and girth that compares well with females. I'm guessing they would. Not all though, as there are scrawny types that have thin shoulders that isn't cut out to be. But if you can pick the ones with good body types correctly and raise them, it would pay off well.

    On another note, since there is so much showa to pick from, my failed showa and my only showa experience to date gives me pause when I look at the many here to choose from (not to buy from, to be clear:-) ). I am crossing out the tosai where sumi and beni is jockeying for dominance, especially in the shoulder area. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

    I'm saying the shoulder area because that area bulks up and stretches, although the matsonusoke types, as typical of Momotaro, don't suffer this trait in its initial stages of growth. The tension on the skin subject to growth stresses compounds the conflict in those areas where sumi and beni overlap. Where there is weak beni, it is hidden from view by the sumi. But the sumi comes and goes during the growth phase, and when it goes, it may not resurface. It would then expose the faults in the beni, which have hitherto been hidden. Which is why there are many showa shown that I would avoid. I'd be safe going with showa with tsubo sumi, and if there is overlay of beni and sumi, I can take it when it's on the head, and I'll cross my fingers on the tail. But not the shoulder. Again, I'm a newbie with showa, and chances are that I'm way off.

  7. #7
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Any showa showing a weak beni is a concern. However, unlike kohaku and sanke, many showa beni does improve over time more dramatically compared to kohaku and sanke. The only problem is if the improvement is sure, maybe or not at all.
    I have a Dainichi showa with a perfect pattern(maruten sandan with tsubo sumi) and a great body conformation. The only problem is that its beni looks thin and orange as of the moment. When it arrived with the dealer it even had an uneven beni. Now its beni is even and soft orange with a fukurin outlay. Its beni coloration has increased by few percentage along with its size. Dealer is confident that while it will not get that intense red, once its grows up its beni will be a beautiful soft red orange along with an intense tsubo sumi combination and fukurin skin will hopefully produce a beautiful showa nevertheless.
    Speaking of momotaro showa, I have been informed that my dealer will try to bid for 5 of these Lion Queen tosai offsprings. Hopefully one of these ends up in one of the hobbyist pond so we can monitor the development. I did mention to the dealer that based in the pictures, none seem to have that body conformation of their famous ajks mother. I suppose those with even better bodies are still kept in the farm to be raised and sell in another auction date perhaps.

  8. #8
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Mike and Homer, those are interesting thoughts about male koi. Growing male koi from tosai in an all-male pond would probably give us some answers. We can be closer to determining if without competing for food with females, male koi can successfully develop length and girth that compares well with females. I'm guessing they would. Not all though, as there are scrawny types that have thin shoulders that isn't cut out to be. But if you can pick the ones with good body types correctly and raise them, it would pay off well.

    On another note, since there is so much showa to pick from, my failed showa and my only showa experience to date gives me pause when I look at the many here to choose from (not to buy from, to be clear:-) ). I am crossing out the tosai where sumi and beni is jockeying for dominance, especially in the shoulder area. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
    .
    I dont see any problems with sumi and beni on the shoulders. If the beni and sumi is of good quality and skin is elastic, there is no problem.

    With regards to an all male pond that can all grow to jumbo without any female is in my opinion very very difficult. For one these males should preferably purchase already at 70cm and from a breeder that purposely grow jumbo males and still young to have a greater chance to reach 85cm with girth. The very few fine specimen of jumbo male gosanke koi worldwide just proves this point.

  9. #9
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    "I dont see any problems with sumi and beni on the shoulders. If the beni and sumi is of good quality and skin is elastic, there is no problem." My concern is with sumi and beni overlapping though, especially on the shoulder area. Quality of beni has to be seen, but if obscured by overlapping sumi, it makes me as a buyer hesitant as I would be taking an expensive gamble. As a betting man, I'll pass.

    "With regards to an all male pond that can all grow to jumbo without any female is in my opinion very very difficult. For one these males should preferably purchase already at 70cm and from a breeder that purposely grow jumbo males and still young to have a greater chance to reach 85cm with girth. The very few fine specimen of jumbo male gosanke koi worldwide just proves this point."

    It doesn't seem to prove anything except that there are few male gosanke that grow jumbo. It may not be because it isn't possible, but because no one really bothers to. For one, it is a luxury to have a separate all-male koi pond. Secondly, what is the reward in it if female koi have much better chances in shows? Males are just lucky to not be given away to live a life in a subpar pond, and when given room in a mixed-sex pond, fail to grow well unless it assumes the uncharacteristic behavior of acting like a female when feeding. When males feed like typical males do, they rarely get their share of food, as their share is scooped up and gobbled up by female koi.

    If it is possible to feed koi like dogs, with each koi having its own bowl, then we could see male koi growing larger than what we're used to seeing, and we could be dealing also with less egg-bound, pigeon-bellied, or droo-bellied female koi.

    P.s. As far as egg-.bound koi goes, I am happy to say that without having to fast my egg-bound asagi and yamabuki, I have been having success making them slowly lose their paunch, just by feeding my koi modified pellets. These are floating pellets wetted and flattened like pizza, that turns them into sinking pellets that don't sink like lead weights but glide down more slowly with the current.

    Additiinally, a shy male runt of a sanke I offered to care for a friend, has started to grow faster and has turned around socially from being a bottom-dwelling loner to being a member of the koi school, and I could attribute this change to the modified pellets.



  10. #10
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    "I dont see any problems with sumi and beni on the shoulders. If the beni and sumi is of good quality and skin is elastic, there is no problem." My concern is with sumi and beni overlapping though, especially on the shoulder area. Quality of beni has to be seen, but if obscured by overlapping sumi, it makes me as a buyer hesitant as I would be taking an expensive gamble. As a betting man, I'll pass.

    "With regards to an all male pond that can all grow to jumbo without any female is in my opinion very very difficult. For one these males should preferably purchase already at 70cm and from a breeder that purposely grow jumbo males and still young to have a greater chance to reach 85cm with girth. The very few fine specimen of jumbo male gosanke koi worldwide just proves this point."

    It doesn't seem to prove anything except that there are few male gosanke that grow jumbo. It may not be because it isn't possible, but because no one really bothers to. For one, it is a luxury to have a separate all-male koi pond. Secondly, what is the reward in it if female koi have much better chances in shows? Males are just lucky to not be given away to live a life in a subpar pond, and when given room in a mixed-sex pond, fail to grow well unless it assumes the uncharacteristic behavior of acting like a female when feeding. When males feed like typical males do, they rarely get their share of food, as their share is scooped up and gobbled up by female koi.

    If it is possible to feed koi like dogs, with each koi having its own bowl, then we could see male koi growing larger than what we're used to seeing, and we could be dealing also with less egg-bound, pigeon-bellied, or droo-bellied female koi.

    P.s. As far as egg-.bound koi goes, I am happy to say that without having to fast my egg-bound asagi and yamabuki, I have been having success making them slowly lose their paunch, just by feeding my koi modified pellets. These are floating pellets wetted and flattened like pizza, that turns them into sinking pellets that don't sink like lead weights but glide down more slowly with the current.

    Additiinally, a shy male runt of a sanke I offered to care for a friend, has started to grow faster and has turned around socially from being a bottom-dwelling loner to being a member of the koi school, and I could attribute this change to the modified pellets.


    There are many male koi nisai sold in Japan with exceptional quality and pattern. The only problem is that they are also as expensive as females and breeders will say if it has a chance to grow jumbo even if you leave it will the breeder. Most likely the breeder will just let you choose his females instead.

    The reality is in the animal kingdom including we humans, there is size gender inequality. There are of course freakish size in nature as well as there will be exceptions and this applies to koi. Male koi that feed as good as females will still be limited by their genetic size limit and no amount or kind of food will change that.

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