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Thread: Tosai "baby" koi vs tiny "bonsai" koi

  1. #11
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I think it is the latter. That is how I understand it.
    In that is the case, if pattern and skin and color is all equal, I would choose the better conformation koi for baby champion regardless whether it is a tosai or older koi

  2. #12
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    In that is the case, if pattern and skin and color is all equal, I would choose the better conformation koi for baby champion regardless whether it is a tosai or older koi
    You're not running for public office, are you? ;-)

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I think Ray's question goes to the reason why conformation is not weighted as much with small koi as with larger koi. Most tosai without deformities have acceptable body form. It is after the koi has grown that deficiencies start to become notable. The small koi is putting energy into growth, with few developing distorted bellies or the like. Even weak tail joints do not appear so weak on a 20cm koi. So, conformation is not so important a distinguishing factor. Quality is also less distinguishing in the small sizes... so much about 'quality' has to do with pigments and skin having youthfulness. Greater emphasis can be placed on the degree of finish and the pattern.

    So, if you get a 20cm koi with the width and bulk proportionally like that of an adult koi, it is going to stand out. It is going to look strange, because 20cm koi are not supposed to look like that. Normal tosai have fins that appear larger in relation to the body. A tosai with adult conformation would have proportional fins which would seem a bit small compared to what is expected in tosai. It would take some time for the eye to adjust.

    Once the eye did adjust, I think I would select the koi with adult conformation, all other things being equal. More difficult is to say how much less accomplished such a tosai might be as to finish or pattern and still win out. I would have to see the competitors to know if the impressive little package made a stronger impression than one with a better pattern or one with perfect sashi. Most likely I would go with the stronger impression rather than giving the win to the best finished pattern. If the stronger impression was the adult configured little guy despite some blurry sashi, I think I would go with it.

  4. #14
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    It would be nice to get some input from ZNA judges. ZNA judges young, mature and jumbo a little differently.

    Tosai "baby" koi vs tiny "bonsai" koi. Which should get the Baby Champion Award?
    Maybe the question should be: Which one does the judging standard favor?

  5. #15
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    An adult male body differs to an adult female body, this may determine the decision process, especially if the female developed a deeper belly from egg carrying

  6. #16
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    Several comments about small bonsai koi vs tosai koi competing for baby champion awards in another thread prompt me to start a new thread. What do you think if there were two finalists for baby champion award that were very similar in quality but had quite different conformation that made it appear that one was a much older bonsai koi with adult type conformation and proportions and one appeared to be a true baby koi with baby conformation? Which should get the Baby Champion Award?
    Sorry, I wasn't more clear in my baby champ scenario question.Let me try again. If there were a situation where two koi are finalists for Baby Champion with equal quality (color, pattern, and finish) and the difference was one had conformation expected for a tosai (larger head and fin to body proportion) and the other had a more mature conformation which conformation should be preferred for a baby champion award?

  7. #17
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    It would be nice to get some input from ZNA judges. ZNA judges young, mature and jumbo a little differently.

    Tosai "baby" koi vs tiny "bonsai" koi. Which should get the Baby Champion Award?
    Maybe the question should be: Which one does the judging standard favor?

    Ray is a ZNA Judge.

  8. #18
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't more clear in my baby champ scenario question.Let me try again. If there were a situation where two koi are finalists for Baby Champion with equal quality (color, pattern, and finish) and the difference was one had conformation expected for a tosai (larger head and fin to body proportion) and the other had a more mature conformation which conformation should be preferred for a baby champion award?

    Ray, As a ZNA judge, which would you favor?

  9. #19
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    30 years ago I first saw and heard about a "bonsai" pond at Bob & Joan Finnegan's home. Joan did not mention "Baby Champion" or a change in body conformation, but she did briefly explained why it sometimes was an advantage to try and have smaller finished show Koi grow at a slower rate.

  10. #20
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    While I would deem the adult conformation to have the edge if conventional wisdom prevails, I find conventional wisdom fickle. There is no Rosetta stone to judging as tastes change. When a certain style becomes too popular and too mainstream, it loses its cachet and becomes passé. Often what was perceived as the apex of appreciation becomes pedestrian once the crowd comes in with our 'me too' consonance. Not that pedestrian is anywhere far from the ideal, it's just the snob in us detests the proliferation of copycats and wants what's unique. For example, I love mackerel tabbies for their pattern and their subtle blend and mixture of neutral colors gray, brown, and black. But they have little value in cat circles. They're just too common. They're even free for the taking.

    And if uniqueness is to be valued highly in judging, I would be finding having an adult conformation to be an edge if we're drowning in a sea of tosai conformation.

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