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Thread: Tosai "baby" koi vs tiny "bonsai" koi

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    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Tosai "baby" koi vs tiny "bonsai" koi

    Several comments about small bonsai koi vs tosai koi competing for baby champion awards in another thread prompt me to start a new thread. What do you think if there were two finalists for baby champion award that were very similar in quality but had quite different conformation that made it appear that one was a much older bonsai koi with adult type conformation and proportions and one appeared to be a true baby koi with baby conformation? Which should get the Baby Champion Award?

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    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    Since the "Baby Champ" is based on size, why would age have anything to do with it? For me personally, I do not like the big eyes and big tail of 'bonsai' koi. So just in general, I would choose the 'baby' over the 'bonsai'.

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    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    Several comments about small bonsai koi vs tosai koi competing for baby champion awards in another thread prompt me to start a new thread. What do you think if there were two finalists for baby champion award that were very similar in quality but had quite different conformation that made it appear that one was a much older bonsai koi with adult type conformation and proportions and one appeared to be a true baby koi with baby conformation? Which should get the Baby Champion Award?
    I would leave the decision to the judges.

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    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    As judges, and for the most part trained hobbyists, have been conditioned to appreciate koi based on certain conformation associated with mature koi, the small bonsai koi would be favored as long as it conforms to established shapes of mature koi. If the tosai koi happens to have the conformation of a mature koi, which can happen, then it still stands a good chance of winning. But we're talking of an instance in time, as all judging is based on anyway.

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    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    As judges, and for the most part trained hobbyists, have been conditioned to appreciate koi based on certain conformation associated with mature koi, the small bonsai koi would be favored as long as it conforms to established shapes of mature koi. If the tosai koi happens to have the conformation of a mature koi, which can happen, then it still stands a good chance of winning. But we're talking of an instance in time, as all judging is based on anyway.

    In judging baby champion, conformation is the weakest criteria. Pattern, skin quality plays a much important role. It does not matter whether if its a very young koi tosai or a koi that was purposely kept from growing for the first two or three years as long as criteria are met. In Japan its not unusual for a doitsu or ginrin gosankes to win baby champion or very pretty male tosais or stunted nisais or sansais gosanke to win.

    I would like to add as well that conformation only becomes more and more important in judging as the size go up and many hobbyist make the mistake in trying to bulk up small koi for koi show at the expense of color and skin quality.

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    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    In judging baby champion, conformation is the weakest criteria. Pattern, skin quality plays a much important role. It does not matter whether if its a very young koi tosai or a koi that was purposely kept from growing for the first two or three years as long as criteria are met. In Japan its not unusual for a doitsu or ginrin gosankes to win baby champion or very pretty male tosais or stunted nisais or sansais gosanke to win.
    You're right Homer. But I believe Ray was asking along the lines of those factors being equal. At least that is my understanding of it.

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    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    You're right Homer. But I believe Ray was asking along the lines of those factors being equal. At least that is my understanding of it.
    But from my understanding a koi can be grown very slowly and the body width may not be as wide a young koi that has been fed well. I have seen nisai and sansai smaller in conformation compared to some jumbo tosais being produced by some farms today. I dont see how relevant age is in choosing a champion.

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    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    But from my understanding a koi can be grown very slowly and the body width may not be as wide a young koi that has been fed well. I have seen nisai and sansai smaller in conformation compared to some jumbo tosais being produced by some farms today. I dont see how relevant age is in choosing a champion.
    If you can take the time to look at Ray's posting, it would really help the discussion to keep it on track. Adult conformation vs baby conformation was a part of that post and very well qualified.

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    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    I am lost. Is Ray saying all young koi will expect to have baby conformation while older koi with have adult conformation or is this about baby conformation vs adult looking conformation in choosing baby champion regardless of age, or stunted, bloodline, etc.

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    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    I am lost. Is Ray saying all young koi will expect to have baby conformation while older koi with have adult conformation or is this about baby conformation vs adult looking conformation in choosing baby champion regardless of age, or stunted, bloodline, etc.
    I think it is the latter. That is how I understand it.

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