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Thread: Fading Hi

  1. #41
    Nisai
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    The sumi look more like shimi for the time being??

    SF

  2. #42
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Hi Mike, great thread. Lots of pics and interest. It's what we need around here!

    Unfortunately, problems like these are not much fun for koi keepers.

    High PH, Poor genetics, aged poor food. a combination of one or more.

    I tend to lean with Doug and genetics. The red in the center of the scale means that the koi could be trying to refill the scale with color following a growth spurt
    but the yellow around the outside scale means it's going the wrong way. It should be a lighter orange with red slit inside the center of the scale. What you had to say earlier Mike about the rounded scales and how they pull away from the main patern is also an indication of weak benni and to stay away from a koi showing this indication.

  3. #43
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    I have this orphan a guy gave me - a poor bekko now, but it was a sanke that appeared to have potential at one time. I've seen the guy's pond and other fish and they have nice deep hi - certainly much better than I can do. The guy paid good money but knows itís always a crap shoot. I would feel ripped off.

    Dick alludes to possible causes. One of Jr's nurture vs. nature things. Because of differences between lines in the way beni is built, my bet would be on genetics too.

    Surely, breeders and hobbyists alike would like this "disappearing hi" trait bred out of koi. My question... is there a conscious effort on the part of breeders to not pair fish whose offspring are susceptible to this phenomenon? Do breeders even know if there is a high incidence of disappearing hi in their lines? Finally, how common is this - 1%, 0.1%, 0.01%.

    Sorry to muddy your thread with a barrage of questions Mike. I re-read the whole thing whenever you update and learn something new each time.

    steve hopkins


  4. #44
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Swordfish: The Sumi on the McCann Sanke is too immature to comment on. I'm not expecting the true nature of the Sumi to express itself until growth slows. Maybe a hint when "winter" temps in the 60sF arrive? (Matt: Sorry to label it with your name when it differs from all the rest of your offspring! ...just easy way to say which I'm referencing.) If you look back at the first pics you will see that he did not have the heavy "baby sumi" so often seen on tosai Sanke. The Sumi is a curiosity.

    Dick: Yep. No red slit in the scales. The pics do not show it, but the Torazo Sanke does have the red slit I would usually look for. The McCann Sanke has a smudge in the middle of each scale. It was more brownish when he was smaller. Now the smudge is redder. The fading has stopped, at least for now, but the scales along the edges of the pattern remain distinct. Further fading to be expected? His pattern shows maruzome-type, but I am still in doubt whether it is actually true maruzome or simply the temporary effect of fading Hi. If I were considering buying this fish, I would pass unless the price was low simply because there are so many questions about the Hi. What surprises me is that the Hi is truly red and has continually become redder despite the growth he has put on. The Torazo Sanke is a much softer orange-red, with no color gaps separating the scales along the pattern edge. I have read about Yagozen Hi having a dot in each scale. However, I cannot say I have seen Yagozen Hi in person to really know what it is like. I wish there was an index to all the old Japanese magazines that would make it easier to research a specific subject like that! A study of Hi types and their development would be of great interest. All the articles I have seen are too superficial to get a real understanding of Hi. About all I've been able to take away is the "orange-based Hi is best" conclusion.

    Bekko: I am sure breeders do not want a tendency of fading Hi in their lines. Easy to eliminate ones that fade as fry. Not so easy to eliminate a tendency to fade when 4 or 5 years old? ... There was an item in NI some months ago about a prized Kohaku with an unusual pattern that faded after a few years. The fading occurred relatively quickly once it started and left a white fish with a bit of red in the course of a season. That koi had gone through the hands of a top breeder, a famed dealer and experienced hobbyists. The risks of koi! .... And, in case anyone reading has the notion that Matt McCann was selling weak-Hi koi, forget it! He supplied a group of tosai for a club project. The others were typical of Matsunosuke genetics, much like the Torazo Sanke now keeping this guy company. Matt expressed concern about this one at the time I got it by luck of the draw, and made a standing offer to replace any of his tosai that became Bekkos. He would not normally have been selling it, except for the nature of the club project. He is a very straight-up guy. ...I'm glad he did not leave this fellow out of the batch, because it is teaching me more than I had hoped to gain from the project.

  5. #45
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Well, 'tis year end, so took the opportunity of taking some progress shots. The McCann Sanke was not very cooperative about getting measured. I'm calling it 16.5", but maybe a little more or less?

  6. #46
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    .....Uh, that's Hunter, the kitten that showed up the afternoon Hurricane Charley struck. Found a home with us. He got his name by earning it. Mice, lizards, squirrels, birds & toads have all come to an end in his jaws, but so far he has not figured a way to go fishing.

    A different angle of Sanke's back.

  7. #47
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    His pal, the Torazo Sanke, is now 14+".

  8. #48
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    A closer view of the Hi of each. Can you tell which is which?

  9. #49
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The pic with the blue tub showing is the Torazo.

    I'm sorry the pics are not better on detail, but you look at the Torazo Sanke carefully you can make out a thin darker red line of Hi within each scale. This is what I always look for in Kohaku or Sanke. No matter how much you study the McCann Sanke, however, you'll not find such a growth line. It is a completely different sort of Hi. Now that water temps are in the mid-60sF, I had been hoping the McCann Sanke would slow down on growth and a growth line would become visible in each scale, but it is not happening.

    On the other hand, if you study some of the more distance photos, you can see a pattern of darker "dots" in his Hi plate. When he was smaller, these had a brownish tone to them, sort of like a smudge in each scale. Now, the smudges are definitely red, just deeper than the rest of the scale. I am not certain that this color is actually in the scale or if it is an illusion created by underlying skin and overlapping scales. I guess I could remove a scale to figure it out, but I'd rather not.

  10. #50
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Forgot to note a comparison I find interesting ...

    When I got the Torazo Sanke he was 9.5" (and likely 17 months from hatching). At that time the McCann Sanke was right at 14" (and just a little over 13 months from hatching), having grown 10" in 5 months. After 3 months, the Torazo is 14+", just under 5" of growth, and the McCann is 16.5"... half the gain in length. The Torazo is definitely catching up to the younger fish after having been left in a dealer's inventory tank for most of the growing season. The Torazo is also a thinner fish ... its growth has gone into length, not girth.

    They will be getting a period of fasting beginning in a couple of days. I am curious what will occur when their diet is limited to algae and the occasional bug.

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