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Thread: All Japan Shinkokai Show

  1. #11
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Reminds me of the last Koi America held in DC near Dulles Airport many years ago. The Japanese judges gave the GC to a very large kohaku who was healthy, very imposing, but whose skin was not in as good condition as the showa that was RGC. At the ZNA Judging Seminar the Japanese judges were asked about the decision. Why did a slightly larger kohaku get GC instead of the showa (that won RGC) that was obviously in its prime. It was hard to get the message across but it was ultimately the respect shown to an obviously older fish and to the owner who had kept it is good condition even past its prime. That acknowledge of and deference to older age is very cultural and I doubt it is part of any written judging rules. That consideration was obvious to the Japanese judges; not so to most of the North Americans.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleRG View Post
    ****As with most things nowadays, we always here stories of "politics" entering into.........everything......especially when one has an interest/money involved.....
    I've long found it ironic that the Shinkokai All-Japan Show is regarded as the highest level of competition in the hobby, and does consistently have the highest overall quality of koi, when it is much more likely to have commercial influences in the decisions than the ZNA All-Japan or other hobbyist-sponsored shows. It would be interesting to have a comparison over a period of several years of how many of the top award winners at Shinkokai All-Japan never resided in a hobbyist's home pond compared to the top award winners at the ZNA All-Japan and the Rinyukai All-Japan. While the stabling of the highest quality koi with breeders/dealers is pervasive, I would guess that Shinkokai is much more a competition between breeders with the others having a higher degree of hobbyist-raised koi. Actual data would be difficult to gather, but very interesting.

  3. #13
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Reminds me of the last Koi America held in DC near Dulles Airport many years ago. The Japanese judges gave the GC to a very large kohaku who was healthy, very imposing, but whose skin was not in as good condition as the showa that was RGC. At the ZNA Judging Seminar the Japanese judges were asked about the decision. Why did a slightly larger kohaku get GC instead of the showa (that won RGC) that was obviously in its prime. It was hard to get the message across but it was ultimately the respect shown to an obviously older fish and to the owner who had kept it is good condition even past its prime. That acknowledge of and deference to older age is very cultural and I doubt it is part of any written judging rules. That consideration was obvious to the Japanese judges; not so to most of the North Americans.
    I wonder Michael, how many of the "masters" that forged this hobby in the beginning days and times are turning over in their graves now that "times have apparently changed"? With now the posting of koi on FB, Youtube, boldly broadcasting the cost of some of these magnificent creatures.

    Are those very masters now wondering "are the people appreciative of these koi because of their magificence, or because of the price tag.....?"

    "The koi hobby did not start with the very rich, but rather the very poor..."

    As someone once said....

  4. #14
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I've long found it ironic that the Shinkokai All-Japan Show is regarded as the highest level of competition in the hobby, and does consistently have the highest overall quality of koi, when it is much more likely to have commercial influences in the decisions than the ZNA All-Japan or other hobbyist-sponsored shows. It would be interesting to have a comparison over a period of several years of how many of the top award winners at Shinkokai All-Japan never resided in a hobbyist's home pond compared to the top award winners at the ZNA All-Japan and the Rinyukai All-Japan. While the stabling of the highest quality koi with breeders/dealers is pervasive, I would guess that Shinkokai is much more a competition between breeders with the others having a higher degree of hobbyist-raised koi. Actual data would be difficult to gather, but very interesting.
    As do I Mike, because it is the one that can be frought with the most "external influences".....

    The ZNA, have their system and education standards, as we do have here in the USA. We have continuing education, exams, tests. We also have nothing to benefit by selecting the GC. Would it not enter into the equation, if someone was supplying you a bloodline, a breeder, mudpond space, etc, etc, if their entry was in the vat (and they know in advance who is going, submitting pictures, etc) and you were judging it? Maybe that is why they have so many judges? There is a lot of money, reputation at stake, etc. Would it not be difficult to keep that measure of impartiality, to "remain above reproach," and maintain that appearance......? Either implied or not? And I am only speaking of the "impression" of such....

    My personal tastes are to follow the ZNA show in Japan...again, just my "tastes"....

  5. #15
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleRG View Post
    As do I Mike, because it is the one that can be frought with the most "external influences".....

    The ZNA, have their system and education standards, as we do have here in the USA. We have continuing education, exams, tests. We also have nothing to benefit by selecting the GC. Would it not enter into the equation, if someone was supplying you a bloodline, a breeder, mudpond space, etc, etc, if their entry was in the vat (and they know in advance who is going, submitting pictures, etc) and you were judging it? Maybe that is why they have so many judges? There is a lot of money, reputation at stake, etc. Would it not be difficult to keep that measure of impartiality, to "remain above reproach," and maintain that appearance......? Either implied or not? And I am only speaking of the "impression" of such....

    My personal tastes are to follow the ZNA show in Japan...again, just my "tastes"....
    You echo my thoughts regarding many koi shows. It isn't pure unless hobbyists, well-defined and not just any hobbyist, can be the judge. If dealers/breeders are the judges, commercial influences cannot be denied and conflict-of-interes issues arise. Still, the earth rotates and the sun still comes up everyday.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    ByYou echo my thoughts regarding many koi shows. It isn't pure unless hobbyists, well-defined and not just any hobbyist, can be the judge. If dealers/breeders are the judges, commercial influences cannot be denied and conflict-of-interes issues arise. Still, the earth rotates and the sun still comes up everyday.
    I have seen a few hobbyist/small dealers/local breeders who judge that do not have the skill level of shinkokai members who are exposed to more quality koi. Credibility of profession and skills IMO counts. This is why shinkokai AJKS is much popular than ZNA and ryunkai.
    ricshaw likes this.

  7. #17
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    In America we have the practice of a "Judges Walk" on Sunday. It gives Hobbyist a chance to question the Judges selections. A Judge should be prepared to back their selections from the day before. My guess is this isn't something that is done around the World.

    Dale, Did Gerard & Kazuyo have any comment on this practice?

  8. #18
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    In America we have the practice of a "Judges Walk" on Sunday. It gives Hobbyist a chance to question the Judges selections. A Judge should be prepared to back their selections from the day before. My guess is this isn't something that is done around the World.

    Dale, Did Gerard & Kazuyo have any comment on this practice?
    I am trying to remember one way or the other Troy.....that was some time ago.....and I am old....

    But I do remember that Gerard did enjoy himself and I know the crowd enjoyed him...

    And to a point above, I did not mean to give the impression that hobbyiests did the judging on their own, but rather there are very well organized, well-respected, with deep history organisations that provide judging services, of hobbyiests who have chosen to be members and invest the time and money to learn more extensively, etc. I cannot vouch for all hobbyiest organisations, but the two that I can vouch for would be ZNA (not just in the USA, but worldwide) and the AKJA (USA-based), both of whom have very skilled members and some of whom I would place well ahead of some shinkokai, so it works both ways, as there are in Britian, Europe, Australia, Japan, South Africa, and the list goes on. Some of these organisations have quite extensive, wide ranging pre-candidate, candidate, jr, sr judging requirements and exams, tests, etc, and the internship may go on for 1, 2, 3, 4 and or more years depending upon the level each wishes to attain. So there are pre-requisities, well-published of the various judging associations available out there along the way, it is not just a matter of a hobbyiest deciding he is a koi judge...

    Either way, which you follow, it still must not be lost, the ability to appreciate our wet friends, our koi...

  9. #19
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleRG View Post
    I am trying to remember one way or the other Troy.....that was some time ago.....and I am old....
    But I do remember that Gerard did enjoy himself and I know the crowd enjoyed him...
    And to a point above, I did not mean to give the impression that hobbyiests did the judging on their own, but rather there are very well organized, well-respected, with deep history organisations that provide judging services, of hobbyiests who have chosen to be members and invest the time and money to learn more extensively, etc. I cannot vouch for all hobbyiest organisations, but the two that I can vouch for would be ZNA (not just in the USA, but worldwide) and the AKJA (USA-based), both of whom have very skilled members and some of whom I would place well ahead of some shinkokai, so it works both ways, as there are in Britian, Europe, Australia, Japan, South Africa, and the list goes on. Some of these organisations have quite extensive, wide ranging pre-candidate, candidate, jr, sr judging requirements and exams, tests, etc, and the internship may go on for 1, 2, 3, 4 and or more years depending upon the level each wishes to attain. So there are pre-requisities, well-published of the various judging associations available out there along the way, it is not just a matter of a hobbyiest deciding he is a koi judge...
    Either way, which you follow, it still must not be lost, the ability to appreciate our wet friends, our koi...
    I can vouch for the Associate Koi Clubs of America. The AKCA was the first USA based judging service.

  10. #20
    Tosai Kate's Avatar
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    She is a 7 year old, 85cm Matsunosuke Sanke. She has already won a Grand Champion award in Japan, she won the All Yamanashi Koi show. Matsunosuke Koi of this quality often peak at around 12 to 14 years old. Are you agree this is right selection?

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