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Thread: To Feed OR not To Feed?

  1. #21
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Aazoo is also made in Taiwan, this is what has written on the package. I personally never ever feed Chinese made food for any kind of pets. The price of 1 or 2 avocado is as same as 1.0kg Azoo package(7.81$). Today I found some JBL koi foods two times expensive then Azoo. I used color enhancer foods but the wastes was red and developed red spots on head and scales on white body based fishes. i also feed several days dried lettuce leafs , Poops become complete green.some times they eat string algae on that time their Poop is also Green.
    Oh, no avocado then for your koi. But you may find some other fruits available and native to Iran that has good oils that your koi would like that doesn't cost as much.

  2. #22
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    The Azoo food I used years ago was not colored red. It was greenish brown and the koi loved it. It seems there has been quite a change in the formulation.
    It must be hard to stay on one brand blindly. Formulation changes happen and so we should pay attention to labeling and actual usage and effects on the pond, the filter, and ultimately our koi.

  3. #23
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Buoyancy of Koi Waste Related to Koi Food Formulation?

    This thought has been bugging me for some time and I thought that now would be a good time to introduce this subject while the subject of Azoo and koi food is still fresh.

    I've learned from MCA Mike's post about the buoyancy if koi waste and have always accepted that as a given. Not that all koi waste floats, but that those that float, or are buoyant, and stay suspended, are significant. Since they do not settle at the sump, they needed to be mechanically filtered before reaching the biofilter. Those that manage to reach the biofilter do accumulate to make life difficult for the koi and the keeper.

    Since I get to siphon koi waste from the sump bottom every other day, and get to observe how quickly my static k1 filter plugs up, I am starting to get a sense of how the choice of koi food impacts the maintenance of my mechanical filter and my water quality. I'm just talking about my casual observations, which I consider at this point anecdotal. My conclusions could easily be filled with holes, but still I wanted to broach this subject.

    I mentioned earlier that feeding Aquamaster makes the water more turbid than feeding Koi King or Azoo. I mentioned also that Koi King and Azoo is formulated in a way that makes the pellets gel-like or rubbery. I sometimes would ask what disadvantage there would be to making food gel-like and rubbery. We know the gel lattices make the pellets bind and stay together longer, keeping it from making the pond water murky, but do we think about how the koi waste would behave?

    When koi waste gets past the bottom drain into the settlement chamber, how much of it would settle? If the koi waste still retains the gel-like nature of the koi food, would it be more likely to stay suspended, and thus more likely to not settle? If so, wouldn't his cause more particles to get past the settlement chamber and introduce more solids into the mechanical filters, and eventually bring more contamination into the biofilter?

    I know firsthand how little waste I get when I feed no pellets, meaning fresh fish, and readily associate suspended fine waste with the binders that are used in koi pellets. I know however, how impractical it is to feed fresh fish, and I don't advocate this as an alternative. And I also accept that binders are needed to make the manufacture of pellets possible. But I do question the use of gel-forming ingredients in koi pellets. First, I wonder if they are beneficial to digestion. Secondly, I wonder if they cause more work for our filters. Yes, the water is clearer initially, but have we given it enough thought and study to see if such koi food are really better in the long run?

    It's just a thought. I'm not maligning any product, but just want to share my take on evaluating koi food. It certainly isn't easy. It is indeed baffling. Koi food costs a lot. Are you really getting your money's worth? How do you know for sure?
    Reza likes this.

  4. #24
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    I had a chance to talk with a fish food manufacturer that also produced premium koi food. They mentioned to me that aside from their present successful premium line they planned to produce also a cheaper koi food line to compete against China manufactured food in terms of price but at a better quality. I did ask the difference between a premium one and a more competitively priced one. The quality of the ingredients is the difference. For example, a 28% premium protein koi food will give better results versus a 36% protein but cheaper price in terms of long term benefit when all aspects of koi (growth, conformation, skin quality, bone structure and youthful skin, condition, resistance) is taken into account. The key word used was "long term" and more "complete nutrition". For short term a koi food with a 40% supposedly lower quality protein levels and using cheaper synthetic colorants (widely used to lower price and bright up color short term in some farmed fish like salmon for foOd without consideration to the long term effect on the fish) can be effective as well. In the end, the choice of koi food we choose is based on our objectives and of course our budget.
    Btw, I really don't see how a koi food that disintegrates and makes the water easily murky in a closed circulating pond a quality one. If water quality suffers because of the food then I would simply stop using the food and change to a new one rather than keep on second guessing the filter. Now if the koi food fed produces less waste and produces good results in growth, volume and skin and less water quality and koi health issues while providing a good food conversion ratio then I would deem the food a quality one.
    With regards to krill, it is a good source of natural color and protein but it is very expensive according to the manufacture. So is natural human grade Astaxanthin found i premium koi and color food. In comparison, a manufacturer can just add very little krill and synthetic astaxanthin (made from petroleum and not fit for human consumption) with cheaper quality fish meal for the crude protein ( many higher protein but cheaper commercial fish food use this solely for growth) and minimal amounts of vitamins and micronutrients to save on cost.
    Also, I did ask about why the range of percentage in a koi food does not equate to 100% and if it meant the difference is left for carbohydrates. Well, turns out food should not be looked as 100%. by just adding up the percentages or assuming that a lower protein food will naturally have higher carbs.
    One last thing, even the food manufacturer is saying feeding very high protein (40% above) continously can be dangerous to the health of the koi more especially with mature koi.
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  5. #25
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Did he explain why he believes feeding high protein food continuously is not good for mature koi?

  6. #26
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Mike,

    It has been their observation that high protein levels per production lot of different manufacturers can differ from time to time. A 42 % minimum protein levels can sometimes range up to 50% sometimes but sometimes some manufacturers may go below. To confuse the matter more there is such a thing also of how well a certain protein translate to food conversion ratio and the long term effect on the kidneys of the koi. It is their belief that constantly feeding high protein is taxing to the long term health of the koi. Rotating high protein with low protein will be the best option if one would like to bulk up their koi for show while giving a "rest" period for the koi. I did ask what if one just lessen the amount of high protein fed to the koi instead of rotating to lower protein, they said it is also an option but reducing the feed also reduces also the total intake of important vitamins and micronutrients. I then asked why not also increase the vitamins and micronutrients in the higher protein food, they said excess is not good also and can be just a waste. I know its a little confusing but I buy their logic and the logic why almost all koi food manufacturer offer high and low protein food.

  7. #27
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Mike,

    It has been their observation that high protein levels per production lot of different manufacturers can differ from time to time. A 42 % minimum protein levels can sometimes range up to 50% sometimes but sometimes some manufacturers may go below. To confuse the matter more there is such a thing also of how well a certain protein translate to food conversion ratio and the long term effect on the kidneys of the koi. It is their belief that constantly feeding high protein is taxing to the long term health of the koi. Rotating high protein with low protein will be the best option if one would like to bulk up their koi for show while giving a "rest" period for the koi. I did ask what if one just lessen the amount of high protein fed to the koi instead of rotating to lower protein, they said it is also an option but reducing the feed also reduces also the total intake of important vitamins and micronutrients. I then asked why not also increase the vitamins and micronutrients in the higher protein food, they said excess is not good also and can be just a waste. I know its a little confusing but I buy their logic and the logic why almost all koi food manufacturer offer high and low protein food.
    Is there any references for guiding the daily micro and macro nutrients needs of koi, Like humans. I mean, a Tosai daily needs how many calories, vitamins,.... and so on.

  8. #28
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Btw, I really don't see how a koi food that disintegrates and makes the water easily murky in a closed circulating pond a quality one. If water quality suffers because of the food then I would simply stop using the food and change to a new one rather than keep on second guessing the filter. Now if the koi food fed produces less waste and produces good results in growth, volume and skin and less water quality and koi health issues while providing a good food conversion ratio then I would deem the koi food a quality one.
    Yes indeed. If the koi food doesn't cloud, if it isn't full of indigestible binders that end up as buoyant koi waste in large quantities, if it makes the koi healthy and let's it develop well, it would be a good koi food.

    But it is all too easy to mistake water clarity when feeding for quality. While it is plainly obvious one can't mistake a non-cloudying piece of pebble for a quality koi food, it isn't quite obvious when it comes to koi food made expressly to not cloud. A koi food manufacturer could easily make koi food non-cloudying from cheap matter and sell it as quality and it will sell quickly just because "non-cloudying" is the one property that can be readily observed. A positive observation of non-cloudiness becomes an instant confirmation of quality in the eyes of a koi keeper not interested in observing other aspects of quality in a koi food.

    I did ask about why the range of percentage in a koi food does not equate to 100% and if it meant the difference is left for carbohydrates. Well, turns out food should not be looked as 100%. by just adding up the percentages or assuming that a lower protein food will naturally have higher carbs.
    So how should we use percentages? Is there some sort of koi food maker industry-speak we have to decipher? Darn, I had it wrong all this time

  9. #29
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Yes indeed. If the koi food doesn't cloud, if it isn't full of indigestible binders that end up as buoyant koi waste in large quantities, if it makes the koi healthy and let's it develop well, it would be a good koi food.

    But it is all too easy to mistake water clarity when feeding for quality. While it is plainly obvious one can't mistake a non-cloudying piece of pebble for a quality koi food, it isn't quite obvious when it comes to koi food made expressly to not cloud. A koi food manufacturer could easily make koi food non-cloudying from cheap matter and sell it as quality and it will sell quickly just because "non-cloudying" is the one property that can be readily observed. A positive observation of non-cloudiness becomes an instant confirmation of quality in the eyes of a koi keeper not interested in observing other aspects of quality in a koi food.

    [COLOR=#333333] So how should we use percentages? Is there some sort of koi food maker industry-speak we have to decipher? Darn, I had it wrong all this time
    I agree that a koi food that does not cloud the water is not what makes a good quality koi food but I cannot get the reason why a koi food manufacturer who will claim their koi food does not cloud the water and yet it does. That speaks about the consistency of their claim and perhaps their quality standards.

    With regards to nutritional value computation, I asked about it and they said there is a different computation but I failed to ask. But if you think about it, a cheaper koi food with a supposedly high protein may just put low quality crude protein and cheap extenders to give the food more weight without any nutritional value to lessen the cost.

  10. #30
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    The quality of protein is one of the key differences between different Koi foods IMO. Quality and percentage of protein are not always related to Koi food cost.

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