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Thread: How they could raise koi to 1 Meter?

  1. #1
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    How they could raise koi to 1 Meter?

    Hi,
    May be this was the all persons question and still is somebodies and newbies too. After reading Mike Snaden's quest for 80cm articles i found most of differences may happen in keeping environment and conditions. By knowing that most koi keepers around the world bring their fish from Japan and their fish have same genetic they parent have.

    So In the case of genetic they are same and may be in 50% the hobbyist and breeder are in same situation. But still I didn't clearly understand differences of keepers condition and breeder conditions.I don't think that the Soft water by itself become second 50%.

    I will be so thankful if the professional breeders and keepers guide me more in this case.

  2. #2
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    There are 4 main factors in raising koi in jumbo size that even breeders and hobbyist alike will agree on:
    1. Genetics to grow jumbo
    2. Water quality management
    3. Food
    4. Koi keeping skills and technique

    Ask different breeders and hobbyist to rank in order of importance though will result in multiple answers.

    Snadens ideas on growing jumbo does seem to work especially when he presents samples of accomplishments. But what about female koi that had the right good body frame, coming from the jumbo oyagoi and raised in soft good quality water that failed to reach jumbo before quality deteriorated? Does one blame in on genetics or koi food? What about koi that was raised in hard water but still manage to retain quality and reach jumbo easily? Does one credited it then to superior bloodline?

    What I have realized over the years raising jumbo koi that retains the beauty is still a rarity. However, the chances now have improved with continuous improvement of koi breeding genetics, quality of koi food and ability of dedicated koi keepers to maintain better consistent water quality over a longer period of time.

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    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I don't think any of us would argue that if the fish does not have the genetics to grow big,then all other efforts are nill. It wasn't that long ago in my koi exposure that without the addition of Magoi bloodlines, the koi of that period did not make the mark of ever increasing length.
    With any effort after time, and the consistant mentality of the japanese, that daily efforts for improvement, would result after time that, food, water quality etc would begin to tighten up the
    missing links of nutrition and water quality and the % of contribution to the desired affect.

    so while we may have a better opportunity to grow fish bigger these days then when I first started, it still comes down to about 2% of each year's spawn that has the ability to maintain, the quality it takes to make a champion.Even with the best of conditions. When you look at all the oyagoi that sakai hiroshima uses to continually rank consistanntly at the top of the national shows, it still comes down to numbers. No matter what else breeder do that still seems to be a limiter on sucess that we may never be able to change.
    Dick Benbow

  4. #4
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    There are 4 main factors in raising koi in jumbo size that even breeders and hobbyist alike will agree on:
    1. Genetics to grow jumbo
    2. Water quality management
    3. Food
    4. Koi keeping skills and technique

    ..........
    Thank for your information, I am 100 percent agree with you. Lately I made a chart to compare Iranian koi conditions and Japanese.
    How they could raise koi to 1 Meter?-evaluation.pdf
    Maybe the scores and results are wrong. I divided all conditions in 2 part and totally 6 index the total result had to be reached 100.
    In first I was thinking it is totally based on chance and rarely happening but as I studied more pages about breeders and grand champions I fount it seems large fishes in breeders pond around 80~90 CM are almost normal. But out of Japan 80 CM seems a dream or a big challenge. I never see 60 CM Koi but 90cm wiled carp tens of times are catched from river.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How they could raise koi to 1 Meter?-evaluation.pdf  

  5. #5
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    I don't think any of us would argue that if the fish does not have the genetics to grow big,then all other efforts are nill. It wasn't that long ago in my koi exposure that without the addition of Magoi bloodlines, the koi of that period did not make the mark of ever increasing length.
    With any effort after time, and the consistant mentality of the japanese, that daily efforts for improvement, would result after time that, food, water quality etc would begin to tighten up the
    missing links of nutrition and water quality and the % of contribution to the desired affect.

    so while we may have a better opportunity to grow fish bigger these days then when I first started, it still comes down to about 2% of each year's spawn that has the ability to maintain, the quality it takes to make a champion.Even with the best of conditions. When you look at all the oyagoi that sakai hiroshima uses to continually rank consistanntly at the top of the national shows, it still comes down to numbers. No matter what else breeder do that still seems to be a limiter on sucess that we may never be able to change.


    Dick, once a time a person said to me " in fact, some of the “ugly” ones had the friendliest personalities" about koi quality. I think preparing ideal condition to keeping koi, regardless to koi's genetic or breeder's bloodline is 50% on koi keeping wheel.

    Thanks Dick

  6. #6
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    One question else, Almost all big kois are female. And as I understand breeders do not let she spawn in early ages and keeping to be grow much enough.
    Does early spawning will stop she's growing in next years?
    how they avoid eggs creation on their body?
    Is just dividing males and females in to different ponds enough?

  7. #7
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    One question else, Almost all big kois are female. And as I understand breeders do not let she spawn in early ages and keeping to be grow much enough.
    Does early spawning will stop she's growing in next years?
    how they avoid eggs creation on their body?
    Is just dividing males and females in to different ponds enough?

    I am not sure all big Koi are females. It has been my experience buying cheap tosai, for dozens of years, that "genetics" plays a bigger part in the final size of Koi. It has been demonstrated to me over-and-over in my ponds that some Koi grow slower and do not reach the size that some other Koi do. In more recent years, the difference is much more noticeable. I have seen drastic differences in unnamed breeder tosai vs. so called "jumbo tosai" and/or well known Japanese breeder tosai.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Females will typically grow larger than their male brothers in the same spawn, so most very large koi will be female. But, with so much emphasis in producing large koi, males from the top lines tend to get larger than the typical males of just 10 or 15 years ago. I am not aware of a male gosanke reaching a full meter. I am aware of several exceeding 85cm. Momotaro has won several male champion awards with gosanke in the over 85cm size group.

    Usually, the jumbo koi are not bred until after their show careers are over. There are notable exceptions. Momotaro spawned Lion Queen before she won the Shinkokai All_japan championship and had her offspring available for sale before she won. Obviously, great care was taken to assure that she was not injured during spawning. There have been other great koi that were spawned while still being shown. It has been done to get rid of egginess so the body form is optimal for show. When they are raised in eternal summer conditions for 6, 7 or more years, egg production/absorption is a major issue to reaching an optimal body shape.

  9. #9
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    The rate of male grand champions and female Grand champions are not equal and also the bests were in 80~ 85 CM and seldom in 90 CM. But to be bigger than 85CM is quite normal for female Grand Champions or female Oyagoi and parent kois.
    As you said I think the term of Jumbo and any usage of this term has its own complexity.

    I know about Jumbo tosai or jumbo potential Koi just what I learn and read from this board and many other pages over the net and I cannot say even a word in this case.

    what I wander is that Japan breeders uses the 7, 8 or bigger kois to spawning for saving body shape, Does postponement of spawning will help a koi to reach a bigger size(male and female)? And as mike said Lion Queen and some others are exemptions.

    Also as I understand from mikes post the breeders keep females on upper temperature of 20C or 22C to avoid eggs generation on females body.

  10. #10
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post

    Also as I understand from mikes post the breeders keep females on upper temperature of 20C or 22C to avoid eggs generation on females body.
    You misunderstood what I was trying to say. The special koi being raised for showing are kept in the greenhouse ponds year-round for several reasons, particularly to maximize growth and to avoid the dangers of the mudpond. Feeding can be tailored to the individual koi... foods that add bulk if the koi lacks volume, foods to cleanse the whites if the white is not bright, etc. But, koi raised like this continuously can end up having eggs that cause the body to have an unattractive shape with the abdomen hanging. Breeders and dealers who focus on raising mature koi for showing have fasted such koi to get rid of the eggs, but this can delay the koi be ready for show. Some who do not want to fast the koi to get rid of the eggs have manually stripped the eggs, but this risks injury to the fish. So, on occasion, some will spawn the koi to accomplish their goals. This involves risks also. ....A dealer like Narita, who gets paid to raise a koi to be at its peak for show, does not want to disappoint the owner by having the koi injure herself or getting scraped. Much is involved in getting the very best koi to reach their full potential, and not all succeed in getting there.

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