Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Asagi Doing Head Stands

  1. #1
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792

    Asagi Doing Head Stands

    I made mention of my asagi in an earlier post, which had benefited from a 'fats-only' summer fast and had improved her conformation from being pigeon-breasted. Until a week ago, I was worried for her because she kept on making head stands. She would be facing downward, at an angle of about 15° from the vertical, with her tail up and showing by the surface.I was relieved when she stopped doing it and returned to normal behavior.

    Before I tell you what I think was the reason for her behavior, could you venture to guess why she acted that way?

  2. #2
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    774
    Constipation.

  3. #3
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    173
    Re-absorbed her eggs?

  4. #4
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Thanks for your ideas, Tim and Coolwon. I'm also guessing, but I think my koi is undergoing a time of rebalancing itself. Pigeon-breasted, its center of gravity was leaning towards the front. It had gotten used to it. When it underwent a fast and lost its pigeon-breastedness, the center of gravity moved further back. Think of the center of gravity as a fulcrum in a see-saw. If the see-saw was balanced with the fulcrum in place, and the fulcrum was moved, the see-saw would not be balanced anymore. The koi doing the head stand was dealing with this change, and hasn't rebalanced. It took a while, I reckon to be a week, before it adjusted internally and found this balance.That is my take. I could be wrong, but I'm glad the asagi is doing well now but its conformation is much much better although the body line isn't perfect yet. But I think it will be a much more gradual change on the way to restoring its body line (fingers crossed).

  5. #5
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    738
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Thanks for your ideas, Tim and Coolwon. I'm also guessing, but I think my koi is undergoing a time of rebalancing itself. Pigeon-breasted, its center of gravity was leaning towards the front. It had gotten used to it. When it underwent a fast and lost its pigeon-breastedness, the center of gravity moved further back. Think of the center of gravity as a fulcrum in a see-saw. If the see-saw was balanced with the fulcrum in place, and the fulcrum was moved, the see-saw would not be balanced anymore. The koi doing the head stand was dealing with this change, and hasn't rebalanced. It took a while, I reckon to be a week, before it adjusted internally and found this balance.That is my take. I could be wrong, but I'm glad the asagi is doing well now but its conformation is much much better although the body line isn't perfect yet. But I think it will be a much more gradual change on the way to restoring its body line (fingers crossed).
    Swimming in a head stand happens to goldfish and in some cases to koi. I am not convinced pigeon breast or that fulcrum thing happen to be causing it. If that were the case then many koi in Japan fed in summer and develop some pigeon breast and then diet in colder months would experience them all at once. A more reasonable explanation can be found in goldfish hobby. Accordingly these are supposedly causes
    HEAD STANDING*in goldfish.
    1. Intestinal worms*
    2. Toxic water, do water changes.*
    3. Females that are spawning will do this when they are tired.* Head standing stops the males from driving them. Ryukins will also "tail stand" when worn out.*
    4. Frontal kidney damage*
    5. Gas from bacterial action on food

    Top heavy mass koi( eggs and fats are stored more on the top part) generally might when in a stationary relax position stay a little downward from a horizontal position but a vertical position would already be unusual.

  6. #6
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Swimming in a head stand happens to goldfish and in some cases to koi. I am not convinced pigeon breast or that fulcrum thing happen to be causing it. If that were the case then many koi in Japan fed in summer and develop some pigeon breast and then diet in colder months would experience them all at once. A more reasonable explanation can be found in goldfish hobby. Accordingly these are supposedly causes
    HEAD STANDING*in goldfish.
    1. Intestinal worms*
    2. Toxic water, do water changes.*
    3. Females that are spawning will do this when they are tired.* Head standing stops the males from driving them. Ryukins will also "tail stand" when worn out.*
    4. Frontal kidney damage*
    5. Gas from bacterial action on food
    I really don't know if you can be the arbiter of sound reasoning. Considering that the problem was resolved without any treatment nor changes, almost all causes you mentioned are not at all likely. It was in all likelihood a temporary condition, and it doesn't point to causes that would linger on without the koi keeper's intervention.

    It helps sometimes to pay attention, not panic and resort to action that would worsen a situation.

    The Japan koi that are pigeon-breasted and fasted in cold months, are they really situational equivalents to my koi, one that has not really fasted going into its fifth year in tropical conditions?

  7. #7
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    738
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I really don't know if you can be the arbiter of sound reasoning. Considering that the problem was resolved without any treatment nor changes, almost all causes you mentioned are not at all likely. It was in all likelihood a temporary condition, and it doesn't point to causes that would linger on without the koi keeper's intervention.

    It helps sometimes to pay attention, not panic and resort to action that would worsen a situation.

    The Japan koi that are pigeon-breasted and fasted in cold months, are they really situational equivalents to my koi, one that has not really fasted going into its fifth year in tropical conditions?
    While its true that some cases of unusual behavior call for no intervention and the problem resolves itself, it is not always the case.

    It is true also that we can not equate pigeon breasted or egg bound koi in Japan there but there are many koi with pigeon breast in tropical countries that were intentionally fasted that do not exhibit a normal "head stand." for a week.

    Some of the causes I mentioned like number 3 or 5 can be resolved even without intervention. Changing water can already be considered an intervention in cause number 2.

    I have seen observed some koi that have symptoms of swim bladder problems with or without any pigeon breast syndrome do prolong head stands (more than an hour). A few resolves by themselves and many don't.

  8. #8
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    While its true that some cases of unusual behavior call for no intervention and the problem resolves itself, it is not always the case.

    It is true also that we can not equate pigeon breasted or egg bound koi in Japan there but there are many koi with pigeon breast in tropical countries that were intentionally fasted that do not exhibit a normal "head stand." for a week.

    Some of the causes I mentioned like number 3 or 5 can be resolved even without intervention. Changing water can already be considered an intervention in cause number 2.

    I have seen observed some koi that have symptoms of swim bladder problems with or without any pigeon breast syndrome do prolong head stands (more than an hour). A few resolves by themselves and many don't.
    But we are not taking about general conditions. This specific situation did resolve itself. Why do we always get tied up in generalities coupled with exceptions and disclaimers? Aren't we beyond that? Or is that something we do to have the last word? I used to do that when I quarrel with my siblings, but that was when I was a little boy.

    Anyway, this is a discussion and I have made known that I am speculating, and invite speculation. There's no need to wrap it in language that characterizes something as less or more reasonable. It is antagonistic and creates friction in the space allotted for freewheeling discussion to take place.

    I don't know if other tropically raised koi with pigeon breast and fasted really followed the same protocol I followed, nor do I know the other specifics mine from their situation, nor do I know if you have done observations on these koi yourself, nor if such an incident as I observed had just not been observed but did happen, nor... you get the point. It's, in short, argumentative.

    Just take my case in its entirety, without diluting it with your commentary, and run with it. Otherwise, we end up in going in circles. OK, enough of my own commentary and now I'm off my bully pulpit.

    Now, on topic...

    Yes, those are possibilities. #3 isn't the case as I would have told you the asagi was spawning. #5 is a possibility, although not likely because the koi is fasting. #2 is possible, but I've learned a lot from you about bacteria that now I'm very good at cleaning the filter and bottoms and making regular water changes. Besides, I would swim in the pond and would, like you said, would experience itching and rashes if the water were filled with plenty of pathogenic bacteria.

  9. #9
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    738
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    But we are not taking about general conditions. This specific situation did resolve itself. Why do we always get tied up in generalities coupled with exceptions and disclaimers? Aren't we beyond that? Or is that something we do to have the last word? I used to do that when I quarrel with my siblings, but that was when I was a little boy.

    Anyway, this is a discussion and I have made known that I am speculating, and invite speculation. There's no need to wrap it in language that characterizes something as less or more reasonable. It is antagonistic and creates friction in the space allotted for freewheeling discussion to take place.

    I don't know if other tropically raised koi with pigeon breast and fasted really followed the same protocol I followed, nor do I know the other specifics mine from their situation, nor do I know if you have done observations on these koi yourself, nor if such an incident as I observed had just not been observed but did happen, nor... you get the point. It's, in short, argumentative.

    Just take my case in its entirety, without diluting it with your commentary, and run with it. Otherwise, we end up in going in circles. OK, enough of my own commentary and now I'm off my bully pulpit.

    Now, on topic...

    Yes, those are possibilities. #3 isn't the case as I would have told you the asagi was spawning. #5 is a possibility, although not likely because the koi is fasting. #2 is possible, but I've learned a lot from you about bacteria that now I'm very good at cleaning the filter and bottoms and making regular water changes. Besides, I would swim in the pond and would, like you said, would experience itching and rashes if the water were filled with plenty of pathogenic bacteria.
    Sometimes, perhaps there is just no explanation. I have been having problem with one of 80cm kohaku that stopped feeding more than 2 weeks already. I had her injected 3 x but this not seem to help. Water quality seem ok as all the rest of the koi are feeding aggressively but I cannot discount the possibility of a viral or bacteria that this particular koi have no immunity. Could the koi have a tooth decay? Possible. Could the koi have an internal problems that it needs to resolve. Possible. Could the koi be just going to normal phase and will return back to normal? Possible. Could the koi be just normally trying to do some egg reabsorbsion? Possible. Could it be kidney problem? Possible. Early sign of swim bladder? Possible. Could it be because I changed the koi food and she is the only one who refuses to eat it.? Possible but not likely.

    In any case if her condition resolves itself then it really does not matter anymore what the speculative cause is. If other koi would also begin exhibiting her same condition then perhaps I have to really determine the cause.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Sometimes, perhaps there is just no explanation. I have been having problem with one of 80cm kohaku that stopped feeding more than 2 weeks already. I had her injected 3 x but this not seem to help. Water quality seem ok as all the rest of the koi are feeding aggressively but I cannot discount the possibility of a viral or bacteria that this particular koi have no immunity. Could the koi have a tooth decay? Possible. Could the koi have an internal problems that it needs to resolve. Possible. Could the koi be just going to normal phase and will return back to normal? Possible. Could the koi be just normally trying to do some egg reabsorbsion? Possible. Could it be kidney problem? Possible. Early sign of swim bladder? Possible. Could it be because I changed the koi food and she is the only one who refuses to eat it.? Possible but not likely.

    In any case if her condition resolves itself then it really does not matter anymore what the speculative cause is. If other koi would also begin exhibiting her same condition then perhaps I have to really determine the cause.
    Your problem is a problem any koi keeper will have to face one time or another. I can see that you have acted on it already with injections, and I hope that course of action is the best. If it is bacterial and you used antibiotics, that would work for the near term, but be sure to restore the koi's gut flora with good probiotics. If the cause if viral, then an antibiotic injection would be useless. I'm just assuming the injection is a broad-spectrum antibiotic.

    There are many possible causes, such as those you mentioned. I like to see a koi with a problem as the one that is most susceptible and sensitive to stress. That koi is your marker and your early warning signal. When it starts to act differently, we tune in on it to find out what it going on. It may be a problem that is only specific to that koi, or it could be a problem that will sooner or later affect the entire koi population in the pond.

    Just the same, my approach will be to just make sure that pond conditions are as ideal as possible. If there was something I may have overlooked, I need to comb thru my checklist with a fine toothcomb, and avoid making liberal assumptions about how farfetched a parameter may have strayed just because I'm pretty confident about my koi keeping ability. I have to take a third person point of view and harangue the koi keeper, which is me.

    And then I'll further improve pond conditions to help the koi combat any stress. I would add 0.1% salt, and I would increase my dosage of em1 effective microorganisms into the pond. I would also add natural immune boosters such as garlic and bee propolis to my food. If the koi is not eating, I will just consider that a positive as when a koi is sick, it needs to rest and eating takes away a lot of energy. When it is ready, it will slowly come back to eating and will become more social with the rest of the koi.

    Note that I have not talked about doing anything to the sick koi that the rest of the koi population is not getting. I think that the best thing is to provide the sick koi with the best condition so that it you can help it heal by itself. Whatever the cause that is which we don't know about that is internal to the koi, the koi will be able to overcome it while it is early. It is our job to be observant and to keep a minor problem from becoming a crisis.

    As for my asagi, I learned something today that is material to its recent behavior. I noticed ulcers below its mouth and at its front breast (since it's pigeon-breasted). So I will have to resort to my salt and microorganism protocol, as well as adding immune boosters to the koi food.

    Now, I am likely to chuck my center of gravity theory. I think that the long fast had made my asagi hungrier than ever, that it would spend more time scouring the pond bottom for food. Since it still has a pigeon breast (though less pronounced), it probably ended up scraping its front breast more than necessary, and ended up with the ulcer.

    The ulcer has spread to the bottom of the mouth, and the koi is experiencing pain when it scrapes the pond bottom. So it has changed its stance so that when it scours the pond bottom, it has to do a head stand to keep its breast from scraping the pond bottom. In hindsight, I recall having touched its tail at the surface, and it would move back to a normal position. This indicates this behavior is voluntary, and is not a condition forced upon the koi by lack of balance or bladder control.

    Since the koi is no longer doing a head stand, I am guessing that it isn't as hungry as before, as I have started to gradually increase their feeding, and that it no longer feels compelled to scour the pond bottom. I am as yet not too worried, as the koi still has an appetitie, is still social, and comes up to me for petting. I don't think of it as a bladder problem, as its swimming stance and movement isn't forced (which I have seen in my recently passed away tancho).

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Head in detail
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-03-2014, 05:50 PM
  2. As we head into the holiday weeks....
    By MCA in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-25-2013, 09:54 AM
  3. Dirty Head?
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 08-09-2012, 02:08 AM
  4. Which Kohak stands out the most?
    By aquitori in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 06-29-2006, 01:39 AM
  5. Big head carp
    By kingkong in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-23-2005, 11:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com