Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 40

Thread: HELP! New Pond Syndrome going crazy!!

  1. #21
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun
    Location
    Westminster, CO
    Posts
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    "Up to 500 gallons" more like 250 gallons. Not nearly enough biological filtration for 900 gallon pond with 7 Koi.

    Yes, you need to considering upgrading your filter system.
    I have 2 of them for up to 1000gal of filtration.

    I did calculate the amount of koi the pond should be able to handle and from what I read it should be able to handle 1" per 10gal. I only have 65" of koi total.

    Is there a different method I should follow for deciding on filtration?

  2. #22
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    I have 2 of them for up to 1000gal of filtration.

    I did calculate the amount of koi the pond should be able to handle and from what I read it should be able to handle 1" per 10gal. I only have 65" of koi total.

    Is there a different method I should follow for deciding on filtration?
    Let me more blunt. This is a forum for serious Koi hobbyists. The filters you have are junk. Nobody I know use little shoe box filters on ponds with Koi. You seem like you do not understand the importance of biological filtration which is the key to success keeping Koi.

  3. #23
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun
    Location
    Westminster, CO
    Posts
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Let me more blunt. This is a forum for serious Koi hobbyists. The filters you have are junk. Nobody I know use little shoe box filters on ponds with Koi. You seem like you do not understand the importance of biological filtration which is the key to success keeping Koi.
    No offense but this filtration was recommended to me by someone who has been a koi hobbyist for 20 years. I'm just relaying what I have learned from him, etc. I however do not have access to him for additional information as he's in the hospital currently so I'm flying solo. He himself is the one that told me it's more than sufficient as it will handle 1000gal. Just because I'm new doesn't mean I'm not serious.

    Rather than calling my system "junk" it would more helpful to tell me, as I asked in my previous post. "Is there a different method I should follow for deciding on filtration?" so I can be pointed in a better direction if you disagree with my current method.

  4. #24
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    3,159
    I'll have to agree with Ricshaw that those boxes are "junk". Here is why: It sits at the bottom of the pond so you have to take it out to clean it which means you are going to stir up all the koi crap and debris when you do which is bad. Because it isn't a bottom drain system there will be not a whole lot of mechanical filtration. The only fish crap that is going to go in it will be whatever crap happens to drop into it as its falling to the pond floor. The rest will fall to the pond floor and just sit there waiting for you to clean the pond. And they are undersized. Rule of thumb is to cut whatever the manufacturer says in half. If they say 1000gal then its 500 at best. I'm not going to call your friends creditability into question because I'm not privy to the conversations you have had with him but I can tell you that many of us on this board have not only been keeping koi for many many years but we also show them and that requires a much deeper understanding of koi and koi ponds then the average koi/pond keeper.

    I am assuming that budget and space constraints came into play which is why you didn't go with the bottom drain/external pump/bead filter route. My recommendation then is to add one of these http://www.amazon.com/Savio-Engineering-F200-Livingponds-Versatile/dp/B001V8VTQE/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1441813405&sr=8-16&keywords=savio+pond+filter This would probably be your best bang for your buck and your submersible can just dump into it and it would work well with the waterfall you are planning.
    Koi-Unit
    My personal koi page Updated 7/8/07
    ZNA Potomac Koi Club

  5. #25
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    I think we need MCA to show up on the scene to give some of his practical suggestions.

    Nearly 40 years ago, I put in my first little liner pond to raise a couple of waterlillies and a few goldfish. It was probably about 300 gallons, which seemed really big to a fellow accustomed to the idea that a 50-gallon aquarium was huge. I got a brand name submersible filter that was supposed to be big enough for something like 500 gallons. What a disappointment! Actually, it worked well at keeping the water clear, but had to be cleaned daily or it would clog and end up floating!! I was not too concerned about bio-filtration. After all, there were just 3 or 4 little goldfish. Using a submerged filter kept all the unsightly equipment out of sight, which was a good thing. So, I went looking for something better and wanted to stay with a submerged filter. I had no luck and was ready to give up when I came across a home-made submerged filter available from a waterlily farm in Winter Haven, Florida (now out of business). It was a plastic bucket-sized container with a screw-on lid. It was 18-20 inches tall and had to be in the deepest part of the pond where the water was 30" deep (or it would float when the pump was on). The center of the lid had been cut out. The container was filled with mono-filament netting to the point nothing more could be squeezed in. A plastic grid was cut into a round shape to fit inside the screw-off lid so the netting would stay in place. A hole was drilled into the side of the container near the bottom, with a dual thread male-end hose faucet adapter inserted and held in place with strong threaded metal washers. This allowed a short hose to be attached to the container and to a submerged pump. The pump would draw water through the grid top of the container, pulling the water through all the netting, and then discharging along the bottom of the pond (which had no bottom drain, of course). This created a current that kept a lot of debris in the water column where it would be captured in the filter. This had a lot of drawbacks that I learned about in due course, but it was far better than any other submerged filter then on the market. And, it was cheaper, too. It did what I wanted at the time and still worked acceptably when the pond got enlarged to around 750-800 gallons. Then came 1978 and I acquired my first koi. Oh boy!

    The koi did great when they were goldfish sized. But, as they grew, there was so much more debris, waste, digging in the lily pots, etc., etc. I made do for a long time, but cleaning the filter became a harder weekly chore and I had to spend hours with a fine hand net to remove debris from the bottom of the pond. I reduced the fish to just 3 koi, one of which got to be 24 inches and eventually gave birth to an old, bedraggled Hariwake I still have today. It was harder to maintain that 750 gallon pond than it is to maintain my 12,500 gallon pond today. I must have been crazy to do so much work for those pond mutts! .....but, those cheap Yamabuki, GinRin Orenji and Shusui-like leather carp amazed me. I ended up needing two of the home-made netting-filled filters to handle 3 koi. Koi are the messiest fish.

    The last time I checked into what was available in submerged filtration was sometime in the 1990s. There were a lot more choices by that time, but none as good as the netting-filled home-made filter... and all were way too expensive for what you got! I have not checked into submerged filtration the past 20 years. I do not know what is out there. I doubt anything is very good and expect all of it still costs too much for what it does. And, even though that cheap home-made filter was better than what was being sold, it was way too much work!

    It seems to me that for ponds in the 500-1,000 gallon range, it is tough to find a reliable filter that is effective and not ugly to see. From what I have been told and observed, I think one of the bio-fall type filters would be best suited. ...I happily defer to someone with actual recent experience with these. What recommends them to me is that they can be more easily hidden with some plantings than a lot of the external filters around, and they can be fitted to work with or without a bottom drain (and can work with a retro-bottom drain if the pond does not have a bottom drain), and either an external or submerged pump. I would look for one promoted as being able to handle twice the volume of the pond. Like Ric said above, the marketing stuff never seems to hold up in real world conditions. I would want to be able to have at least a cubic foot of bio-ball type media.... I would actually prefer K-1 kaldnes media because it has so much surface area per volume of media, even if it had to be in a mesh bag to keep it in place in the filter box of the bio-fall. But, the bio-fall filters a lot more expensive than the Tetra submerged filters, and the bio-media is not cheap! With a lot of on-line searching, lower prices can be found, but good filtration equipment is never cheap. That is why a lot of folks end up with DIY filters, which are not too difficult for a person with some limited handyman skill.... Way difficult for an all-thumbs fellow like me! LOL.

    This is where we need MCA to jump in. He always has good, practical ideas for filtration... including DIY filtration.
    Last edited by MikeM; 09-09- at 02:11 PM. Reason: typo

  6. #26
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Well, while I was composing my reply and talking on phone, Jim posted. The Savio filter he suggests looks worth serious consideration.... pricey, but really marked down, free shipping and Savio products are really well made in my experience.

  7. #27
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    Rather than calling my system "junk" it would more helpful to tell me, as I asked in my previous post. "Is there a different method I should follow for deciding on filtration?" so I can be pointed in a better direction if you disagree with my current method.

    The reason I called your filter boxes "junk" is they are too small and NOT a "system" for a pond with Koi. The different "method" is "biological filtration". The most basic filter with biological filtration for a 900 gallon pond with Koi is the DIY Birdman Sand/Gravel Filter 55 gallon drum filter. The Savio F200 Livingponds filter is good too. Don't fixate on the "5000 gallon filter" claim, the "2,000 gal koi pond recommended pump flow 500 - 3,000 gph" claim is more accurate.

    You need to do some homework and look into "biological filtration". "New Pond Syndrome" is about establishing "Biological Filtration". Small shoe box filters do not provide enough "surface area" to establish "biological filtration" for 65 inches of growing Koi.

  8. #28
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    155
    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    No offense but this filtration was recommended to me by someone who has been a koi hobbyist for 20 years. I'm just relaying what I have learned from him, etc. I however do not have access to him for additional information as he's in the hospital currently so I'm flying solo. He himself is the one that told me it's more than sufficient as it will handle 1000gal. Just because I'm new doesn't mean I'm not serious.

    Rather than calling my system "junk" it would more helpful to tell me, as I asked in my previous post. "Is there a different method I should follow for deciding on filtration?" so I can be pointed in a better direction if you disagree with my current method.
    Hi bn
    I have found the best thing since Wicks bubble gum is to GOOGLE the question that comes to my head when I am deciding how to overcome something myself.
    In your head you would like to know all about water changes in a Koi pond and how to go about it.
    What effect does chlorine have on KOI fish
    Just type in How and when to change the water in my Koi pond.
    Or maybe an ideal schematic pipe and filter diagram for my Koi pond.
    How many gallons should a Koi pond be.
    Minimum and maximum depth for my new Koi pond.
    The ideal pH for my Koi
    What is a bottom drain in my Koi pond for.
    What diameter should it be to stop it blocking.
    How many for this volume of water
    What is a stand pipe for?

    You can become totally self suffcient with GOOGLE. Just ask the question
    Don't like the answer, try rewording it.
    Let common sense prevail.
    If the Koi bug has really bitten,beware.
    That 900 gallon pond will be 90,000 liter's in a year or two.
    You will be pacing the pond out and deciding where the filters go etc etc
    BEWARE of the so called pond builders.
    Join your local Koi society and go to all the Safari's to see how other people have made it happen.
    What is the settlement tank for. Just ask the question
    You can do anything you like,it's waiting for you in the GOOGLE archives.
    Cheers
    Garfield

    PS I repaired a crack on PVC weld on a plastic pipe on my pond piping with a mix of liquid epoxy today.
    I used a length of 50 mm wide membrane soaked in liquid epoxy to wrap around a 110 mm pipe stepped down to 50 mm PVC pipe
    Real awkward position next to the wall Epoxy container instruction was use water to clean hands etc NO solvent
    Used both hands to wrap the membrane around the crack to create a strong wide web.
    Neat tidy repair.
    Wash hands in soap and water No way Jose.
    Fingers stuck together.What a mess.
    Eventually Googled Clean epoxy off hands
    One answer was, wash with Vinegar.
    Bingo.

  9. #29
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    I did calculate the amount of koi the pond should be able to handle and from what I read it should be able to handle 1" per 10gal. I only have 65" of koi total.
    One of the big mistakes people familiar fish aquariums and new to Koi ponds make is the so many inches of fish per gallons formulas. The simplest way I know to explain it to aquarium people, new to keeping Koi in ponds, is compare the "mass" and food eaten between twelve 1" guppies and one 12" growing Koi. No comparison!!! I can keep 12 guppies fine in a 10 gallon aquarium. Keeping a 12" Koi alive in a 10 gallon aquarium would be a challenge.
    The same can be said for the comparison between three 4" Koi and one 12" Koi. A healthy 12" Koi will have more mass than three 4" Koi. The inches per gallon formulas can be thrown out the window IMO. The key is having enough filtration and water changes.

    bnlauren has 7 koi: 1-3", 2-6", 1-8", 3-12" to 14" in 900 gallons. This is very doable with enough biological filtration. Remember bnlauren that these are 65" of growing Koi! 65" will be 100" (then 200") before long if they survive.

    As I have said above, little filters like the Tetra submersible box filter shown below are not adequate for Koi ponds.


  10. #30
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun
    Location
    Westminster, CO
    Posts
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
    Hi bn
    I have found the best thing since Wicks bubble gum is to GOOGLE the question that comes to my head when I am deciding how to overcome something myself.
    In your head you would like to know all about water changes in a Koi pond and how to go about it.
    What effect does chlorine have on KOI fish
    Just type in How and when to change the water in my Koi pond.
    Or maybe an ideal schematic pipe and filter diagram for my Koi pond.
    How many gallons should a Koi pond be.
    Minimum and maximum depth for my new Koi pond.
    The ideal pH for my Koi
    What is a bottom drain in my Koi pond for.
    What diameter should it be to stop it blocking.
    How many for this volume of water
    What is a stand pipe for?

    You can become totally self suffcient with GOOGLE. Just ask the question
    Don't like the answer, try rewording it.
    Let common sense prevail.
    If the Koi bug has really bitten,beware.
    That 900 gallon pond will be 90,000 liter's in a year or two.
    You will be pacing the pond out and deciding where the filters go etc etc
    BEWARE of the so called pond builders.
    Join your local Koi society and go to all the Safari's to see how other people have made it happen.
    What is the settlement tank for. Just ask the question
    You can do anything you like,it's waiting for you in the GOOGLE archives.
    Cheers
    Garfield

    PS I repaired a crack on PVC weld on a plastic pipe on my pond piping with a mix of liquid epoxy today.
    I used a length of 50 mm wide membrane soaked in liquid epoxy to wrap around a 110 mm pipe stepped down to 50 mm PVC pipe
    Real awkward position next to the wall Epoxy container instruction was use water to clean hands etc NO solvent
    Used both hands to wrap the membrane around the crack to create a strong wide web.
    Neat tidy repair.
    Wash hands in soap and water No way Jose.
    Fingers stuck together.What a mess.
    Eventually Googled Clean epoxy off hands
    One answer was, wash with Vinegar.
    Bingo.
    Haha, google has been my best friend since this pond came up. I have been figuring some things out with google but like with the amount of koi calculation, sometimes I'm going in the wrong direction with my searches. If I could start over, like Ricshaw said, I would have tried 3 koi at most first.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. old pond syndrome
    By JasPR in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-04-2013, 12:09 PM
  2. Am I crazy or are the koi crazy?
    By poisonXvenom in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 06-12-2010, 05:07 PM
  3. New Pond Syndrome?
    By PaulRichard in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-01-2008, 01:02 PM
  4. I must be crazy...
    By JosephandGabby in forum Pond Construction
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-16-2007, 04:24 PM
  5. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-15-2007, 09:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com