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Thread: HELP! New Pond Syndrome going crazy!!

  1. #31
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    One of the big mistakes people familiar fish aquariums and new to Koi ponds make is the so many inches of fish per gallons formulas. The simplest way I know to explain it to aquarium people, new to keeping Koi in ponds, is compare the "mass" and food eaten between twelve 1" guppies and one 12" growing Koi. No comparison!!! I can keep 12 guppies fine in a 10 gallon aquarium. Keeping a 12" Koi alive in a 10 gallon aquarium would be a challenge.
    The same can be said for the comparison between three 4" Koi and one 12" Koi. A healthy 12" Koi will have more mass than three 4" Koi. The inches per gallon formulas can be thrown out the window IMO. The key is having enough filtration and water changes.

    bnlauren has 7 koi: 1-3", 2-6", 1-8", 3-12" to 14" in 900 gallons. This is very doable with enough biological filtration. Remember bnlauren that these are 65" of growing Koi! 65" will be 100" (then 200") before long if they survive.

    As I have said above, little filters like the Tetra submersible box filter shown below are not adequate for Koi ponds.

    Ugh....yeah....one of the many things I found via googling how many fish can be sustained in my pond was incorrect....

  2. #32
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    No offense but this filtration was recommended to me by someone who has been a koi hobbyist for 20 years. I'm just relaying what I have learned from him, etc. I however do not have access to him for additional information as he's in the hospital currently so I'm flying solo. He himself is the one that told me it's more than sufficient as it will handle 1000gal. Just because I'm new doesn't mean I'm not serious.

    Rather than calling my system "junk" it would more helpful to tell me, as I asked in my previous post. "Is there a different method I should follow for deciding on filtration?" so I can be pointed in a better direction if you disagree with my current method.
    Is this not the Mr GOOOOGLE who has confused you?

  3. #33
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    The reason I called your filter boxes "junk" is they are too small and NOT a "system" for a pond with Koi. The different "method" is "biological filtration". The most basic filter with biological filtration for a 900 gallon pond with Koi is the DIY Birdman Sand/Gravel Filter 55 gallon drum filter. The Savio F200 Livingponds filter is good too. Don't fixate on the "5000 gallon filter" claim, the "2,000 gal koi pond recommended pump flow 500 - 3,000 gph" claim is more accurate.

    You need to do some homework and look into "biological filtration". "New Pond Syndrome" is about establishing "Biological Filtration". Small shoe box filters do not provide enough "surface area" to establish "biological filtration" for 65 inches of growing Koi.
    I'm kinda liking the Savio F100 Livingponds Filter.....I feel like with out current configuration it may be easier to install, especially since the waterfall isn't fully up yet. I went the the manual and will be calling the manufactuer, hopefully this one will work.....

  4. #34
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
    Is this not the Mr GOOOOGLE who has confused you?
    I've been diverting to Google and the koi hobbyist (20 years) for my information. Googling filters and not knowing which to go with I figured since he has been doing it for 20 years he would know what I would and wouldn't need. Seeing the koi hobbyist pond and such, and since he's been doing it for so long I asked for a filteration recommendation. Prior to asking him I was looking at ones with UV, biofalls, skippies, even one that was $500+. When I asked he suggested the filter boxes, thus I went with that due to his history as a koi hobbyist. There was another koi hobbyist I was in contact with but he was just trying to sell me his products

    Other things I would google on my own would be pond chemistry, what levels affect which fish how, best pump size, temperature, to name a few. While I think have a good handle on those topics I'm sometimes lost at which I should do a water change vs add binder but I'm knowing that also comes with experience.

  5. #35
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    I've been diverting to Google and the koi hobbyist (20 years) for my information. Googling filters and not knowing which to go with I figured since he has been doing it for 20 years he would know what I would and wouldn't need. Seeing the koi hobbyist pond and such, and since he's been doing it for so long I asked for a filteration recommendation. Prior to asking him I was looking at ones with UV, biofalls, skippies, even one that was $500+. When I asked he suggested the filter boxes, thus I went with that due to his history as a koi hobbyist. There was another koi hobbyist I was in contact with but he was just trying to sell me his products

    Other things I would google on my own would be pond chemistry, what levels affect which fish how, best pump size, temperature, to name a few. While I think have a good handle on those topics I'm sometimes lost at which I should do a water change vs add binder but I'm knowing that also comes with experience.
    You need to Google "biological filtration" and look at the Google Images for "biological filtration".

  6. #36
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    You need to Google "biological filtration" and look at the Google Images for "biological filtration".
    I did, hence another reason why I mentioned the Savio F100 in an earlier post, one of the first pictures looked similar to it

  7. #37
    Sansai
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    Hi bn,
    If you do not have a built in piped up bottom drain to remove the build of solids at the lowest point in your pond
    you would need to look at acquiring a pond hand-vac type of arrangement to keep the bottom of your pond clean and free of pooh and leaves etc
    Whatever blows in and settles to the bottom needs to be removed on a very regular basis.
    Cheers
    Garfield

  8. #38
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnlauren View Post
    I have 2 filter boxes and each is able to filter 500gal. I can take pictures when I get home this evening but it's attached to the pump (which cycles 3200gph) in a "T" formation. Below is a link to the filter boxes.

    Tetra® Pond Submersible Flat Box Filter | Filters & Filter Media | PetSmart

    On the opposite end of the pond there is a 1.5" Diameter pipe that sits 1.5-2' above the water as the water exits in the pond (will soon be configured into a waterfall with stones).
    Sorry but i just don't consider that kind of filter as a bio filter.

    First it uses foam which easily traps waste but can easily turn anaerobic as it does not have any aeration nor its very difficult to clean the media. And if the foam filter is cleaned very well, the the weak nitrifying bacteria population is set back easily.

    In addition i do believe 3200 gph being pumped to these 2 small foam filter is just too fast that will disintegrate some of the waste inside by sheer pressure

  9. #39
    Sansai
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    Hi sacicu

    I think this keeper is starting to understand his/her mistakes.

    They have taken enough stick.

    Unfortunately you do not find keepers on every corner to turn to for assistance in this hobby, you have to have a big heart and be very

    committed to get it together and make it work. SPEED KILLS or FOOLS RUSH IN WERE WISE MEN FEAR TO TREAD. Which ever

    They understand by now the implications of a Mickey Mouse filter

    Tetra is a very famous brand name. Like Coke Cola. 500 hundred gallons + 500 gallons = 900 gallons

    Whats wrong with that, even a bit extra,the fouling factor

    Some people like to get the show on the road.

    Don't drive them away

    I started 20 years ago in darkest Africa

    Internet whats that?

    bn, remember, the very best ones have a habit of coming to grief.

    The pond mutts go on for ever.

    Chin up bn. Head down,stuff everybody

    Read read read question question and more questions

    Cheers.

  10. #40
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    I think we need MCA to show up on the scene to give some of his practical suggestions.
    I have called many things by many in this hobby. Practical is not one of them.



    To me the description of the pond, the stocking level, and filtration (note no mention of aeration) is all part and parcel of someone new who says "koi" and has implemented something more for goldfish or a water garden. I can say that as that is basically the scenario with our first pond in Dallas TX around 17 years ago. The wife waned a "koi pond" so I had a "professional" put one it. It was a shallow ditch with no skimmer or bottom drain. It had one box "filter" in the pond that feed a sort of waterfall. The "Pro" put in a few lilies and a few small koi, no UV....and called it complete. When that damn Calpond pump shorted and shocked the wife, I stepped it, tore it all out and put in a proper koi pond with two bottom drains with air domes. I put in a settlement chamber and an Aquadyne bead filter. That lasted us until we moved to Atlanta.

    My suggestions based on the bits and pieces I have read are:
    decide if you really want koi and will back that up long term with a pond system made for koi (the current one)
    If no, sell or give away the koi and do goldfish that are better suited to the pond size and filtration you have
    If yes, join Rocky Mountain Koi Club or Southern Colorado Koi Club...whichever is closest
    If yes, plan on a new/revised koi pond next year of greater depth, volume, filtration and aeration and handle the stocking level (you are way overstocked if the koi grow)
    If yes put into the current pond a retro bottom drain that feed an external pump that feeds an external filter. A bead filter comes to mind but a chambered one can work well also
    plan how and where you will keep koi in a CO winter, a shallow outdoor pond in a CO winter is asking for frozen koi

    As for DIYing a filter, I love my shower stack that uses matting cartridges. But that is not practical outdoors in a CO winter. In a CO winter I would want the pond and filter area all inside a green house or garage with some minimum heat to try to keep the pond water at 50F and keep the pipes from freezing.


    So as you can easily tell....I know very little. But I know it very well.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

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