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Thread: Why to be GC does not mean to be a good Parent?

  1. #1
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Why to be GC does not mean to be a good Parent?

    Peter Waddington, Mark Gardner and so many others said that ".... being an all japan GC doesn't mean it will be a good parent" here is some questions:


    Why (most of times) they will not be a good parent?
    *Some times their sisters and brothers become next mutual parents

    How log she/he will alive?
    *I was searching for some information about Kamya kohaku Mark and Peter told me that she probably dead. just 15 years is not very short for grand champion? so how long will be alive a parent fish?

    What are the evaluation factors for choosing parents?
    *In an article I remember that author mentioned about some times weak in pattern fish will chose for next parent


    Regards

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I would guess that different people would give different reasons why GCs are often poor parents. Some do prove to be good, of course. There are at least two aspects to the question. One aspect is the practical: Can the offspring make the breeder a profit. A second aspect is whether the parent koi can produce another GC. These are not the same thing. Some oyagoi produce a few truly excellent offspring, but at so low a percentage that the breeder cannot maximize his profit. Producing another GC is a lottery even with the very best oyagoi.

    My thought is that an All-Japan level GC has to have a rare combination of traits come together in the single fish, most of which can be thought of as being recessive or 'quasi-recessive'. Rather pass these traits on to the next generation, they are dominated by less refinement in the next generation. An All-Japan GC is often called 'a one in a million koi', which is totally inaccurate. There are literally over a billion gosanke hatched every year. It may be several billion. The chances are that one will be an eventual ZNA All-Japan GC and one will be the Shinkokai All-Japan GC. Perhaps there are two dozen that could win if given the optimal conditions a Narita provides. That is still a very rare koi. It is also often said that a GC has inherited the very best traits of the mother and the very best of the father. I think it actually involves something more. The GC ends up having one or more traits that surpass both the mother and the father, a trait that only comes forward because of a chance combination of genes. As the gene pool is continually refined, there are more opportunities for that chance combination to repeat, but by the time it does, the GC contender will be the koi from some other match with a new combination that rises to an even higher level. All the $50 Kohaku sold today would have been GC level at some point in the past.

    In picking parent sets, it is my observation that breeders look for koi with some truly stellar trait and match it to one with a different outstanding trait. The hope is that there will be offspring with both outstanding traits.
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    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    In picking parent sets, it is my observation that breeders look for koi with some truly stellar trait and match it to one with a different outstanding trait. The hope is that there will be offspring with both outstanding traits.
    What are these traits? What are traits you must have, and what are those traits that aren't necessarily as critical? Let's consider traits such as pattern, conformation, quality of shiroji, of beni, of sumi, lustre, body shape, etc.

    Would a breeder be able to achieve roughly similar success rates if he were to just breed a pair of gosankes that exhibit superior traits, without having to use koi of very defined patterns, as he would with parent koi of highly refined patterns?

    Quality of pattern, as we know, is very much a random (for lack of a better word, ok maybe better than random) characteristic. In terms of randomness, is body shape just as random as quality of body shape? And for that matter, all the other traits?

    Would a GC koi, possessing the best of all attributes, fare much better in producing superior offsprings than a simply outstanding koi whose pattern is much less refined, if both female koi are paired with the same male parent koi?

    Say a breeder won GC. In the process of winning, this GC went thru many chemical conditioning regimen, many long fasts, many shows requiring long spells in a bag in its lifetime, and isn't as virile or as healthy, accounting for its relatively short life span, wouldn't it make more sense to use the GC's more fortunate and more healthy but less beautiful sibling to sire offsprings? It would make a lot of sense that GC's make less ideal parents, based on this reasoning.

    A koi fry's quality is very much dependent on the quality of health of its parent, and given the 'tough love' given to a GC's storied but short and life-draining life, a breeder would promote the GC's lineage but have in stock its unseen but more virile and healthy siblings as parents for future generations.
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  4. #4
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Duplicate. Slow server refresh. Impatient member.

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    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    What are these traits? What are traits you must have, and what are those traits that aren't necessarily as critical? Let's consider traits such as pattern, conformation, quality of shiroji, of beni, of sumi, lustre, body shape, etc.

    Would a breeder be able to achieve roughly similar success rates if he were to just breed a pair of gosankes that exhibit superior traits, without having to use koi of very defined patterns, as he would with parent koi of highly refined patterns?

    Quality of pattern, as we know, is very much a random (for lack of a better word, ok maybe better than random) characteristic. In terms of randomness, is body shape just as random as quality of body shape? And for that matter, all the other traits?

    Would a GC koi, possessing the best of all attributes, fare much better in producing superior offsprings than a simply outstanding koi whose pattern is much less refined, if both female koi are paired with the same male parent koi?

    Say a breeder won GC. In the process of winning, this GC went thru many chemical conditioning regimen, many long fasts, many shows requiring long spells in a bag in its lifetime, and isn't as virile or as healthy, accounting for its relatively short life span, wouldn't it make more sense to use the GC's more fortunate and more healthy but less beautiful sibling to sire offsprings? It would make a lot of sense that GC's make less ideal parents, based on this reasoning.

    A koi fry's quality is very much dependent on the quality of health of its parent, and given the 'tough love' given to a GC's storied but short and life-draining life, a breeder would promote the GC's lineage but have in stock its unseen but more virile and healthy siblings as parents for future generations.
    Koi breeding IMO is a complicated thing especially if one considers trying to get more quality koi frys and trying to earn money from the venture. A good oyagoi does increases ones chances to possibly inject new quality traits to an existing gene pool. A few years ago, Dainichi purchased a few showa oyagoi from Momotora for several millions of dollars in the hopes to inject even bigger jumbo genes for its well known showas that are known with superior skin and luster. Quality offsprings produced by new combination does possess faster natural growth as compared to the older lines but does remain to be seen if the offspring of these new generations of Dainichi showas would be the their new future benchmark or win future GC. Meanwhile, ISA has continued to use their proven lines of showas despite the fact that ISA has to win a GC simply because it works. I do think demand for ISA showa is still increasing worldwide and there is no pressure to inject new blood for now.

    Does a GC makes a good oyagoi? IMO, I think its more of probability. If we are talking about just AJKS GC, there are just a few GC that had been allowed to breed as such the probability of them siring another GC remains to be seen considering the billions of fry being produced a year as compared to around 100 to 500 thousand fry an AJKS GC can only produce. Does breeding a GC makes sense? Yes, it does in a marketing point of view as many hobbyist will pay some of a premium to purchase offsprings regardless of whether the offspring can win a GC or may not possess the same quality of its well known oyagoi or may just possess inferior quality compared to its other cousins from other oyagoi.

    I do not think quality of pattern is totally random. Some oyagoi produce more quality koi with interesting patterns while some oyagoi just produce quality koi that grow big with simple patterns. Body shape and conformation is not random but more designed after several generations. If you study Sakai oyagoi chart, they like big blimp bodies used as oyagoi to produce more quality offsprings will equally the same body shape.
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  6. #6
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    What are these traits? What are traits you must have, and what are those traits that aren't necessarily as critical? Let's consider traits such as pattern, conformation, quality of shiroji, of beni, of sumi, lustre, body shape, etc. ***
    Quality of pattern, as we know, is very much a random (for lack of a better word, ok maybe better than random) characteristic. In terms of randomness, is body shape just as random as quality of body shape? And for that matter, all the other traits? ***
    Many points of discussion in your post, Yerrag. I'll just comment on these.

    Every breeder starts with what they have and looks for what they can get. Let's say a mid-level breeder in Japan can see that his Kohaku have good form and pattern, but the beni does not hold up beyond 70cm. He needs better beni that can peak at a larger size. So, if he had unlimited resources, he could replace all of his breeding stock, but that is not going to happen. Instead, he looks for new male or a new female from a line with more durable beni. Then as generations go by, he sees that the head shape on too many is more pointed than desired. He has to change out an oyagoi to deal with that. Just as he gets past these issues and can focus on further refinements, his female dies and he has to search for another. There may be a great one available, but if she does not match well with the strengths of his existing males, he has a problem. Every koi has particular strengths and shortcomings compared to the perfect ideal envisioned by the breeder. Every All-Japan GC has been imperfect. The process of koi refinement is a continuous selection process, from selecting oyagoi to selecting fry.

    As JR notes in his essay, pattern is something of an issue among gosanke today. To make progress on the traits we consider most important, pattern has declined. There is a lot of 'big fish' wrapping beni to be seen today. It is better on a big koi than a small one, but does not have the powerful impact of a classic pattern. Pattern is inherited, just not predictably.

  7. #7
    Sansai nivek's Avatar
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    Another factor to consider - Will the GC owner allow his koi to become an oyagoi.

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    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    I think that Dr. Gomelsky demonstrated that pattern, regarded as percentage of coverage, on average, falls between the percentages of the parents. There will be some extremes at either end of the range.

    And although I really have nothing constructive to add in this regard, but (and I like big buts) there almost certainly are epigenetic factors that in the fine analysis maybe the difference between the productivity of these highly selected specimens whose genes are otherwise virtually identical. Which is to say something like, “the epigenetic phrasing that led to the GC morphology may not be the same phrasing that the GC passes to the next generation”. So even though she passes on all the genes in all combinations to her offspring the accompanying instructions as to how to implement the GC genome are not the same as she inherited. Perhaps, as in mice, information as to the conditions under which she was raised is passed on the next generation in epigenetic coding and the conditioning that she underwent in GC preparations may code to the contrary. But (and I like little buts) farmers find a way.

  9. #9
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nivek View Post
    Another factor to consider - Will the GC owner allow his koi to become an oyagoi.
    Is that a factor? Maybe if a koi is not yet a GC but has a good chance to be one, it wouldn't be an oyagoi. But once it becomes a GC, and after it starts to show signs of decline, it would be an oyagoi. That kichis would buy more for its offspring is part of the payback of raising to be GC.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    I think that Dr. Gomelsky demonstrated that pattern, regarded as percentage of coverage, on average, falls between the percentages of the parents. There will be some extremes at either end of the range.

    And although I really have nothing constructive to add in this regard, but (and I like big buts) there almost certainly are epigenetic factors that in the fine analysis maybe the difference between the productivity of these highly selected specimens whose genes are otherwise virtually identical. Which is to say something like, “the epigenetic phrasing that led to the GC morphology may not be the same phrasing that the GC passes to the next generation”. So even though she passes on all the genes in all combinations to her offspring the accompanying instructions as to how to implement the GC genome are not the same as she inherited. Perhaps, as in mice, information as to the conditions under which she was raised is passed on the next generation in epigenetic coding and the conditioning that she underwent in GC preparations may code to the contrary. But (and I like little buts) farmers find a way.
    Glad you added epigenetics into the mix, Rob. The environment in which a koi is raised helps define how it's offsprings become. Could raising to be GC and breeding for GC be mutually exclusive goals because judging standards tend to favor cosmetic manipulation/gaming?

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