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Thread: Internationalization Of Koi Breeding

  1. #21
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I have no idea what the prices will be for the koi coming from Poland, but something tells me that quality aside that they will have to be very competitively priced to be able to make a mark. Quality for quality, the US-bred koi seem quite price competitive indeed and offer the advantage of being grown-out locally in the same water and conditions that they were bred in.
    There remains a good deal of consumer bias in favor of Japanese-bred koi. As price increases, it seems to me the bias increases. The segment of the U.S. market willing to spend over $1,000 for a koi seems more comfortable with the import supplied through a dealer than an equivalent quality available from a domestic breeder. Part of it is a lack of confidence in one's own judgment regarding quality. Part is reliance on a favorite dealer's judgment/pitch. Part is the fact that the range of choices available from Japan is so much greater than from domestic breeders focused on producing quality. Making a profit is not easy.

  2. #22
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    There remains a good deal of consumer bias in favor of Japanese-bred koi. As price increases, it seems to me the bias increases. The segment of the U.S. market willing to spend over $1,000 for a koi seems more comfortable with the import supplied through a dealer than an equivalent quality available from a domestic breeder. Part of it is a lack of confidence in one's own judgment regarding quality. Part is reliance on a favorite dealer's judgment/pitch. Part is the fact that the range of choices available from Japan is so much greater than from domestic breeders focused on producing quality. Making a profit is not easy.
    When the gene pool is overwhelmingly on the side of Japan Koi Inc., I have nothing but admiration for local breeders (US) that defy the odds. Truly that is passion- and a great deal of "I believe" ethos at work.

  3. #23
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    There remains a good deal of consumer bias in favor of Japanese-bred koi. As price increases, it seems to me the bias increases. The segment of the U.S. market willing to spend over $1,000 for a koi seems more comfortable with the import supplied through a dealer than an equivalent quality available from a domestic breeder. Part of it is a lack of confidence in one's own judgment regarding quality. Part is reliance on a favorite dealer's judgment/pitch. Part is the fact that the range of choices available from Japan is so much greater than from domestic breeders focused on producing quality. Making a profit is not easy.
    I can only speak for where I live, except for pet store pond quality, I seriously doubt that Koi from domestic breeders can compete with Japanese bred Koi. I just returned from the San Diego Koi show... plenty of vendors selling reasonable priced Japanese bred Koi.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    A major barrier for domestic breeders is the absence of dealers focused on marketing the breeder's koi. The domestic breeder has to begin by selling direct to the customer. Once having started that, the breeder cannot stop unless there were suddenly dealers willing to acquire the entire production. As long as a breeder is selling direct, no dealer is going to carry the koi. Customers naturally believe prices charged by the breeder are less than what a dealer has to charge. Dealers are going to promote the breeders whose koi they carry. So, the Japanese breeders get promoted continuously in the domestic market by multiple dealers, while the domestic breeder must primarily rely on self-promotion. Inherently, the breeder expends most of his time on farm matters.... spawnings, cullings, equipment and pond maintenance. The dealer is all about promotion all year long. The Japanese system of selling through dealers exclusively has tremendous benefits to the overall marketing of koi. The dealers can sell 'the sizzle', as a former KB poster would say. I have heard that the exclusivity of dealers is apparently breaking down in some instances on some farms, to some limited extent. While it may allow the Japanese breeder to make a sale to a visitor who comes without a dealer in tow, I think it would be quite harmful in the long run if Japanese breeders made it common to sell directly to hobbyists. The loss of multiple voices praising the breeder's accomplishments would take its toll.

  5. #25
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I have heard that the exclusivity of dealers is apparently breaking down in some instances on some farms, to some limited extent. While it may allow the Japanese breeder to make a sale to a visitor who comes without a dealer in tow, I think it would be quite harmful in the long run if Japanese breeders made it common to sell directly to hobbyists. The loss of multiple voices praising the breeder's accomplishments would take its toll.
    I think that if the individual hobbyist doesn't represent much in the way of sales revenue, then the breeder is more than happy to allow the dealer to manage the sales/shipments/issues with the customer. When the hobbyist is a "whale" so to speak and purchases lots of high-end koi on a regular basis, that's when you may see the breeder savaging the dealer-hobbyist relationship and selling directly to the customer. The breeder might think he can keep more of the pie for himself, or the hobbyist might think that he can get more for less, but regardless of whether it was the breeder or hobbyist was the one seeking the arrangement doesn't matter so much as far as the dealer is concerned. The dealer will slip away from that breeder and seek out a new one that offers a bit of exclusivity again.

    The end result is that the dealer will not promote that breeder anymore, and might even discourage others from doing so. They may continue to frequent the breeder, but the relationship will never be the same again and the breeder won't get the majority of new sales from the dealer, nor the goodwill and free promotion they previously enjoyed. Really short sighted as more than a few of the real deep pocket newbie hobbyists often get bored with koi and decide to spend their money on other things instead.
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  6. #26
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I think that if the individual hobbyist doesn't represent much in the way of sales revenue, then the breeder is more than happy to allow the dealer to manage the sales/shipments/issues with the customer. When the hobbyist is a "whale" so to speak and purchases lots of high-end koi on a regular basis, that's when you may see the breeder savaging the dealer-hobbyist relationship and selling directly to the customer. The breeder might think he can keep more of the pie for himself, or the hobbyist might think that he can get more for less, but regardless of whether it was the breeder or hobbyist was the one seeking the arrangement doesn't matter so much as far as the dealer is concerned. The dealer will slip away from that breeder and seek out a new one that offers a bit of exclusivity again.
    The end result is that the dealer will not promote that breeder anymore, and might even discourage others from doing so. They may continue to frequent the breeder, but the relationship will never be the same again and the breeder won't get the majority of new sales from the dealer, nor the goodwill and free promotion they previously enjoyed. Really short sighted as more than a few of the real deep pocket newbie hobbyists often get bored with koi and decide to spend their money on other things instead.
    This past weekend I mentioned this thread and asked about the status of Japanese Koi breeders. Like mentioned above, the Asian market has help the supply of high quality Koi and I was told the same thing Brian said above. The end result is money talks.

  7. #27
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Looks like there are several West Coast U.S. Shinkokai Koi dealers selling Japanese Koi at the Central Florida Koi Show. One dealer already posted on Facebook that he sold out.

  8. #28
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    ...Yes, sales went quite well for the west coast dealers at CFKS. We are so very happy to have Genki, Peters & Son and Champion come to Florida each year. The vendor with the largest volume of sales.... probably quadruple (or more) anyone else was a local hobbyist who was selling 8 tiny tosai for $30 (with deeper discounts on Sunday). [Yes, they would be culls to most breeders, but for the folks with a plastic tub puddle pond, they were just the right size and price.] I am not sure who had the most expensive koi for sale. There were more than a couple of vendors with koi priced well over $2500. I am confident that the most expensive tosai were brought by Quality Koi... 9-10+ inch priced from $500 and up (I'm not sure how 'up', but someone mentioned $1,000 as the price on a particular Kohaku tosai), all candidates to go in the mud this Spring. Yoshikigoi USA had an information booth with videos, etc. concerning its importation of Polish-breds. And, there was everything in-between. Lots of bags of koi going out all day for 4 days. (Some were selling at 9am on Thursday.)

    It is a very big market with lots of niches. How to supply the demand profitably? ....It is the question all want answered.

  9. #29
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post

    It is a very big market with lots of niches. How to supply the demand profitably? ....It is the question all want answered.
    With all the domestic breeders and Japanese breeders... does the U.S. really need Polish, Chinese, and Israeli Koi?

  10. #30
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    With all the domestic breeders and Japanese breeders... does the U.S. really need Polish, Chinese, and Israeli Koi?
    Rick you are likely see Polish koi at the next show. Wages and heating with coal will give them an advantage. Besides Poland has been commercially breeding carp since the middle ages.
    After renting a car in Berlin I was in Poland in under an HR. So stopped by the river Oder and seeing a man fishing by ponds as far as the eye could see. Good to practice my Polish. It was explained showing me the fish that they had no scales for the Berlin houswives. These were peat ponds and they had a great business until Hitler killed all the Jews. Most ponds had posts sticking from the center and that is where they would put dead animals on during the winter to fatten the fish in the spring, as the maggots dropped down. Now if all these ponds get filled with koi it will be a sight to see
    Regards
    Eugene

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