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Thread: Selecting Oyagoi

  1. #11
    Jumbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Mark Gardner has posted about a possible oyagoi matching at Purdin Koi Farm, where he was visiting recently. He covers so many aspects of oyagoi selection in a conversational tone, I thought it worth linking here.

    A Showa match made in heaven......? ยป Nishikigoi.Life
    Mike, sorry we couldn't chat more in Orlando. Just a blog post with my own 'feelings', a very important and much used word among Koi breeders.

  2. #12
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    I'm glad you found the article insightful.

    In the fullness of time the Purdin oyagoi will be introduced.

    Sorry you don't feel I have any experience to discuss oyagoi, I have witnessed many spawning, seen many oyagoi and 100,000's of thousands of offspring, and discussed the subject with many breeders.

    With regards to the male, pray tell in your opinion how long one should wait to find out whether the male has stopped growing or has hikui?
    Hi Mark.

    Its a good thing that there is a followup on this Purdin oyagoi series as it would be more in depth to how a breeder chose a particular oyagoi.

    My comment is just my opinion and not meant to at all discredit the work of domestic breeders. Personally I do think local breeders do have a chance to compete against the best in Japan and I am all for it. Hearing what local breeders think and how they do their selection is an interesting article. Each breeder is unique in choosing their respective oyagoi for a particular line. And every breeder may not agree with other breeders opinion nor with the opinion of a journalist who have witnesses numerous spawning and different oyagoi from different breeders.

    My point is though as a journalist you may have witness numerous pairing of different breeders, writing an article on two showas in Purdin that can be potential oyagoi according to you is insightful base on your experience as a journalist but not as an actual breeder who have strategies, goals both short term and long term. Nothing wrong with it actually its just that correct me if I am wrong but you failed to mentioned in the article the opinion of the breeder which I think is whats lacking. You mentioned what you felt are the redeeming qualities of both showas that is suitable for future oyagois for Purdin. If the farm agrees and value with your expert opinion then please mention it in the article. Nothing wrong with including "... and btw the farm 100% agrees with my expert opinion."

    Anyway, I think your work as a journalist in the feild of koi is important and I respect your opinion as a journalist.

    Is hikui prone beni and male potential for growth considered by some breeders in Japan in their oyagoi selection? Perhaps that would be a good future article that you can investigate and write about based on your opinion or better yet based on the opinion of many well known breeders.
    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I have been tied up for a few days. I posted the link because Mark touched on so many points about oyagoi selection that have been discussed in other threads over the years, and did it in so simple a conversational way in reference to particular koi, rather than a theoretical analysis. There could be full essays on each of a dozen different factors referenced. I tend to get detailed and 'carefull' (some would say 'anal') when I write on something.... leading to those long posts not everyone can wade through. For many, the concise, conversational approach can get ideas across more effectively.

    Oyagoi selection is so hugely important for a breeder. Obviously, the selection determines whether breeding goals are met. Perhaps not as obvious is the huge financial cost if a poor selection is made. There is a lot of expense in raising up a spawn only to find that all but a few have to be sold off in bulk. And, there is the lost opportunity. A breeder may think about all the theoretical factors in making a decision, but there will always be pluses and minuses with every alternative. In the end, as with nearly all decisions, there will be a sense that a particular trait (body form, let's say) is the main trait needing improvement in a line. And, so, a female parent is chosen mainly for that one trait and hard choice is the male (usually two or three males) that will offset/enhance the less desirable traits of the female. No matter how analytical one wants to be, there will be a gut feeling. You try to reduce the risk by using multiple males, but the risk of an unsuccessful match always overhangs. And, it will be many months or even a few years before you know. More often than not, there will be no great leap forward.

    It's a crazy business being a koi breeder.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    Mike, sorry we couldn't chat more in Orlando.
    It is always a problem for me when working the show. Saturday is the only day when I'm not on the run, and even then the 'free moments' come in short pauses. Some year I have to get someone to handle my vendor duties so I can spend full time talking with folks.

  5. #15
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    a female parent is chosen mainly for that one trait and hard choice is the male (usually two or three males) that will offset/enhance the less desirable traits of the female. No matter how analytical one wants to be, there will be a gut feeling. You try to reduce the risk by using multiple males, but the risk of an unsuccessful match always overhangs. And, it will be many months or even a few years before you know.
    I have a question regarding the traits of the female and male that you "hope" pass on to offspring. I have read/heard that using females with the appropriate body conformation is a step in the right direction. I know there is no way to know what other traits (good and bad) get passed on, so how would the male(s) contribute.

    I have two pairs to select from and not sure on what to toss together. I'm thinking to just taking by best (large) female and best male(s) of same type and hope for the best. I have old style and new style showa pairs that I can give a go. My only dilema is if it would be more predictable if I keep the old style showa paired with same old style? (Both with decent size/conformation/sumi)

    OR, I can do a new style to new style pairing with a similar size/age female and two younger nisai-sansai males (w/brighter white skin). Just rolling the dice............

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    As Mark suggested, selecting males based on pattern and pigment quality is an oft-mentioned approach.

    Keep in mind that males contribute as much to body form as the females. But, it is the mature female's body that counts at shows. We cannot see what the male will produce in its female offspring. We can see what the female is capable of producing (or, think we can). So, it is sensible to select the female parent based on body form. Then, select males based on traits that offset weaknesses in the females. The goal of the breeder is to obtain some offspring that combine the very best traits of both parents. In the genetic lottery of koi, not many get the perfect combination... if any. But, the few that do are the ones that lead to the continual improvement of koi. For the backyard breeder just having fun, the chances are slim that the few will ever be identified. But, if you are going to go to the effort, do it so you can enjoy the dream when exhausted, sweaty and frustrated.

  7. #17
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    This topic makes me wonder if domestic US breeders outside Japan would even purchase a 100,000 dollars above female gosanke oyagoi in Japan?

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

  8. #18
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    As Mark suggested, selecting males based on pattern and pigment quality is an oft-mentioned approach.

    Keep in mind that males contribute as much to body form as the females. But, it is the mature female's body that counts at shows. We cannot see what the male will produce in its female offspring. We can see what the female is capable of producing (or, think we can). So, it is sensible to select the female parent based on body form. Then, select males based on traits that offset weaknesses in the females. The goal of the breeder is to obtain some offspring that combine the very best traits of both parents. In the genetic lottery of koi, not many get the perfect combination... if any. But, the few that do are the ones that lead to the continual improvement of koi. For the backyard breeder just having fun, the chances are slim that the few will ever be identified. But, if you are going to go to the effort, do it so you can enjoy the dream when exhausted, sweaty and frustrated.
    Yes sir. I have already decided to let conformation of the pair be the deciding factor. I'm hoping to try and have fun on this journey and not try to get beat up over the process. If I can merely get the fry to a culling stage, I would feel that I have accomplished something. Feeding the fry is still my concern. Babies got to EAT!

  9. #19
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akai-San View Post
    Yes sir. I have already decided to let conformation of the pair be the deciding factor. I'm hoping to try and have fun on this journey and not try to get beat up over the process. If I can merely get the fry to a culling stage, I would feel that I have accomplished something. Feeding the fry is still my concern. Babies got to EAT!
    The problem in breeding is raising and culling the fry. As I walked by each pond of tosai with Daisuki he would explain to me. There would be about a thousand in each greenhouse pond with temperature at exactly 25c. There in one was only about 50 . It was explained that it was an experimental breeding and very disapointing as a fry pond was wasted.

  10. #20
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akai-San View Post
    Yes sir. I have already decided to let conformation of the pair be the deciding factor. I'm hoping to try and have fun on this journey and not try to get beat up over the process. If I can merely get the fry to a culling stage, I would feel that I have accomplished something. Feeding the fry is still my concern. Babies got to EAT!
    Since you do not have a 100,000 gal required fry pond it might be smarter to just put your youngest or smallest male in with the female pond and use your show tank for a fry pond And happy Easter to all
    Regards
    Eugene

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