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Thread: EPDM Liners / Pond Liners

  1. #1
    Fry stuckinthecubicle's Avatar
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    EPDM Liners / Pond Liners

    Greetings!

    We're looking to add a 8' x 8' x 3' pond to our backyard structure. While we are comfortable with small landscaping projects, we are unfamiliar with ponds and koi in general. We've been doing some research, but we're looking for a little -- or a lot of-- help

    I've been looking at koi pond kits that state that the EPDM liners are (15 x 15 x 1) or (20 x 20 x1).


    The questions:
    1) Do you feel that our proposed size is big enough to hold two koi?
    2) What size of a liner do you recommend that we purchased, based on the proposed size.


    Thank you so much for your help-- I appreciate it!

  2. #2
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    keep reading and asking for info, just remember koi are large pets and require room to swim and function properly. I currently have 6... 9" young koi in a round 8 foot diameter quarantine tub. Koi are not happy and constantly seem "caged in" acting.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Yes, two or three small koi can be kept in a pond that size, but.....

    It is not nearly so simple to have a successful pond suited to koi. From your question, I sense that you are about where I was in 1978 when I put in my first liner pond. If I had been satisfied with waterlilies and a few goldfish, I would have saved a lot of money and disappointment. But, I really wanted to keep koi. I learned to keep koi in a thousand gallon liner pond with no bottom drain, but it required a lot of work and the learning curve was terrible despite having had success with keeping and breeding tropical fish in aquaria. Knowing about the nitrification process, filtration, etc. may have put me ahead on the curve, but if I had known how much more complex it was to adapt that knowledge to keeping such large fish outdoors, I either would not have taken up koi, or I would have done things very differently from the start. My problem, like nearly everyone, is that at the start I did not know enough to know what I did not know. Learning enough to know what you need to learn is the biggest hurdle of all.

    There is another forum, Koiphen, that is more geared toward beginners than this one. In one of the beginner sub-forums on Koiphen, there are a couple of posts outlining things to be considered. I am copying them below. Go over them and note that everything in them is something you need to learn about to be successful in the long run. Digging a hole and installing a liner is the simple, inexpensive part... even if the digging seems hard at the time. Stop at that point and you have a habitat for waterlillies and can add a few goldfish to enliven it. It is not the life support system required for large fish like koi. I wish you success and enjoyment whatever direction you go.


    FROM KOIPHEN:

    1. WARNING, general rule of thumbs can be off!!!, they are generally used alot, as a quick easy statement, to help dumb things down, and get idea over easier. for most folks general rules of thumbs work. but not always, and there not for everyone. and the general rules of thumbs can be different from one person to the next person.

    general rules of thumbs
    o 10 % pond volume in filteration volume
    o 1/3 of total surface area of pond = surface area needed for fliteration
    o 55 gallon drum dedicated bio filter per 3000 gallons of pond ((assuming good pre mechanical and mechanical filteration is done before the bio filter))
    o gallons per koi (stocking level guide lines for newbies)
     note, this is only stocking level, this has nothing to do with amount of filteration and type of filteration
     1000 gallon per koi, if ya looking to show fish, or have large females
     500 gallon per koi, good
     250 gallon per koi, is suggested max.

    o 3000 gallon min pond size for a pond with koi in it.
    o 3 feet is suggest min for depth of pond.
    o 6 feet radius is kept cleaned around a bottom drain flowing approx 3000 gallons per hour
    o 3.5 feet radius is kept cleaned around a bottom drain that is flowing approx 2000 gph
    o 10% of flow rate going into a settling chamber = suggested size of settling chamber. (example 3000 gph flowing into SC = 300 gallon tank needed.)
    o daily, or twice a week, or weekly cleanings of your filters and if need be your pond as well, ((semi yearly cleanouts only suggested for water gardens, IE only ponds with just plants and perhaps a couple goldfish in them))
    o when gravity flowing water between say pond and a filter, or between filter to filter.
     3000 gph in a 4" pipe will give you approx 1" draw down
     2000 gph in a 3" pipe will give you approx 1" draw down

    o a bottom drain and skimmer and returns, is a requirement in nearly every pond out there, in order to get in thought a self cleaning pond.
    o if it means extra work, that is what will generally get suggested to you.


    1. normal path i take, when building a pond/helping someone
    1. get pond dimensions (length, width, depth) along with shape of pond. along with placement of waterfall.
    1. with this info we can figure out all the inlets and outlets on the pond (drains, skimmers, tprs, gprs, etc...)
    2. we can also figure out turn over rate, and figure out flow rates for all the inlets and outlets on the pond.
    2. the next step, is filtration.
    1. we can't really figure out what size of filters for Pre mechanical, mechanical, fines filtering, without knowing the flow rates.
    2. bio filtration, can also be figured out, but normally type of fish and amount of fish normally needs to be known to make an educated guess. for sizing bio filters.
    3. sizing pipe based on flow rates and if water is flowing by gravity or pressure.
    4. next step is making sure everything is correct. and sounds good.
    5. next step is building the pond
    6. next step is selecting a pump
    1. nearly all plumbing and filters should be installed. the reason for this is. on paper we might have everything down pat, but real world predicts, it never goes like plan for running all your plumbing. and because of this. head loss can change dramatically.
    2. since we don't know how all the plumbing will be ran till pond is built. we won't know head loss, or flow rates your system will handle. until it is built.
    3. once it is built then we can go through some calculations to figure out head loss and flow rates and properly size your pump for your system.

  4. #4
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Remember koi know when they are exposed to the elements. They will act accordingly. Have a secure area with shelter from direct sun and predators. They can sense vulnerability for any good reason.

  5. #5
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    Remember koi know when they are exposed to the elements. They will act accordingly. Have a secure area with shelter from direct sun and predators. They can sense vulnerability for any good reason.
    Water at higher temperatures does not sustain enough oxygen for koi fish to survive so you will have to go deeper in depth. I would say that the pond kit in Arizona is unsuitable for koi . You could try goldfish .
    Regards
    Eugene

  6. #6
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    Remember koi know when they are exposed to the elements. They will act accordingly. Have a secure area with shelter from direct sun and predators. They can sense vulnerability for any good reason.
    I did not know this. This would explain some of the koi behaviors I noticed with my small QT left outside with only half a cover. Thanks for sharing that.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akai-San View Post
    I did not know this. This would explain some of the koi behaviors I noticed with my small QT left outside with only half a cover. Thanks for sharing that.
    I always float a 2 x 3 piece of Styrofoam (lid of shipment box in my case) in Q tank. Koi will huddle under it. AS well as shade screening the entire top for predators and uv.

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