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Thread: Beneficial Green Water? A beginning of understanding

  1. #11
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
    Could it be there is less competition in the QT,therefore more nourishment to go around?
    In the wild you seldom see gin clear water.
    I have always wondered why my fish are a LOT LESS inclined to feed in green water, they remain out of sight and only pop up for a look see and snatch the pellets now and again,never vacuuming food as they do when it is more clear.
    In gin clear water they are up and about hustling for food,why would that be?

    Garfield
    True...this was exactly my condition with the green water. With the UV on again, I now have clear water and they are circling for food when I approach the QT. So it must be their vision of seeing the hand that feeds them that gets them darting about ready for food.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    A friend has shared with me that using greenwater to enhance health and development is a new trend among goldfish hobbyists in Singapore (and presumably elsewhere??). It seems the goldfish hobbyists pursuing this are keeping separate sets of aquaria. One set of aquaria, often large 100 gallon ones, are set up with no filtration or substrate. Airstones are used to obtain oxygen saturation. The tanks have greenwater added to them and given fairly intense artificial lighting (LEDs seem to be popular, but halogen lighting also used). Water changes are performed regularly, sometimes on a daily basis, at a rate of 50-70% per week. The water changes encourage continued robust growth of the greenwater algae by adding minerals otherwise used up. Feeding of the fish adds nutrient and fish respiration produces ammonia for the algae to consume. Hobbyists doing this say that their overall water quality is improved as the algae take up the ammonia without nitrate build-up occurring. Goldfish health, growth, color and appetite all improve over clear water goldfish keeping. They report major improvement in the development of head growth on Orandas, Ranchus and Lionheads. Some say they have much reduced instances of swim bladder problems.
    A second set of aquaria are maintained with clear water and the usual bio-filtration to display goldfish. The goldfish are grown in the greenwater tanks and then moved to the clear water tanks for display, and then switched around after a few weeks or months. The hobbyists doing this acknowledge that half or more of their fish can hardly be seen in the greenwater tanks, which are kept in a separate fishroom or otherwise out of sight, but they say the ones on display in clear water are so much more beautiful it is worth it, and the fish live longer overall since there are fewer health issues.

    Are the benefits really so substantial? There is always a lot of hype by those trying out a new technique. People tend to get caught up in their passion and say overly exuberant stuff. Still, while the benefits of this practice are anecdotal, those doing it must really believe they are seeing benefits (even if perhaps not as dramatic as suggested) or they would not be doing all the extra work involved.

  3. #13
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post

    Are the benefits really so substantial? There is always a lot of hype by those trying out a new technique. People tend to get caught up in their passion and say overly exuberant stuff. Still, while the benefits of this practice are anecdotal, those doing it must really believe they are seeing benefits (even if perhaps not as dramatic as suggested) or they would not be doing all the extra work involved.
    Got me thinking about "seeing" the differences of the koi in my green water condition. With my untrained eyes, I could be falling into the hype of seeing improvement in the green water koi because I haven't really inspected or monitored my koi for some time. Even the contrast of colors of the fish (especially sumi) coming out of the green water may give a false impression than one coming out of clear water. Nonetheless, my short term experience with green water is not something that I want to re-visit anytime soon.

    I like to watch the Ikeage videos on YouTube and wonder the same thing. Although the mud ponds are proven.

  4. #14
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akai-San View Post
    True...this was exactly my condition with the green water. With the UV on again, I now have clear water and they are circling for food when I approach the QT. So it must be their vision of seeing the hand that feeds them that gets them darting about ready for food.
    Maybe an ideal time to monitor the growth or weight and any subtle changes in the color density or pigment changes.

    Garfield

  5. #15
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Mike, your discussion and sharing on algae never gets old, as you keep close tabs on what's being discovered about the nature of algae and its role in nature. Thanks to you, my understanding of it has evolved from seeing it as a nuisance into seeing as something that can be used to help our koi develop. If I could my fish pond be green water half of the year, and clear at another, I think it would be nice. Fish gets the benefit of algae - nutrition, low ammonia, and protection from sunlight - during the hot months from March to August, and from September to February, when it starts to get cooler and the sun is not that direct, I could have my own semi-Ikeage and see my koi emerge from the algae cover, and prepare them for a koi show.

  6. #16
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Mike, your discussion and sharing on algae never gets old, as you keep close tabs on what's being discovered about the nature of algae and its role in nature. Thanks to you, my understanding of it has evolved from seeing it as a nuisance into seeing as something that can be used to help our koi develop. If I could my fish pond be green water half of the year, and clear at another, I think it would be nice. Fish gets the benefit of algae - nutrition, low ammonia, and protection from sunlight - during the hot months from March to August, and from September to February, when it starts to get cooler and the sun is not that direct, I could have my own semi-Ikeage and see my koi emerge from the algae cover, and prepare them for a koi show.
    In the Southern Hemisphere we are heading towards sweltering hot humid days,my water is taking on a bit of a denser green look.
    I pulled out 11/2 kg's of soup barley seed
    /kernel's and boiled it up the weekend.I started adding to my fishes floating salad bowl for them to help them selves as and when they see fit.
    I feed it in compacted lumps, into a road kill inverted plastic wash basket lid with refrigeration pipe insulation, cable tied around the perimeter to keep it afloat.
    I had severe green water a few years ago. UV light taken out of the circuit. Living in the city no barley straw, without paying an arm and a leg to import in. Our supermarket shelves soup section is laden with different brands of pearl barley.
    I have kept the heavy green water at bay for the last few years so we will see what happens from now on.
    If I recall it takes about 3 weeks for the enzymes or whatever it is to have an affect on the algae.
    Prior to feeding the cooked seed. I tried fermenting the seeds in the pond water but I presume I needed to add many more kg's to really get it up to the ppm required to be effective.

    Cheers

    Garfield

  7. #17
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Mike, your discussion and sharing on algae never gets old, as you keep close tabs on what's being discovered about the nature of algae and its role in nature. Thanks to you, my understanding of it has evolved from seeing it as a nuisance into seeing as something that can be used to help our koi develop. If I could my fish pond be green water half of the year, and clear at another, I think it would be nice. Fish gets the benefit of algae - nutrition, low ammonia, and protection from sunlight - during the hot months from March to August, and from September to February, when it starts to get cooler and the sun is not that direct, I could have my own semi-Ikeage and see my koi emerge from the algae cover, and prepare them for a koi show.
    Yerrag, my curiosity about algae stated when I first tried keeping planted aquaria. That's when I saw with my own eyes that the best way to defeat algae in the planted aquarium is to have flourishing plants... with more light, more nutrient in the substrate, more micro-nutrients. All of my old ideas of limiting light and limiting nutrient were wrong. That is when it really got through to me that everything is inter-connected in the aquatic environment. Over time I came to realize that all the subjects we talk about separately are really parts of a whole... biofilm, nitrification cycle, algae, filtration, oxygenation, microbiome, etc. are not independent topics. They are all interconnected. The old concept of a 'balanced pond' of fish and plants has failed in practice because too superficial. But, the broader idea of there being countervailing processes is absolutely accurate. We just do not know what all the processes are, nor how they work together. Lots of stuff happening in our ponds all the time. We just do not see it.
    Last edited by MikeM; 10-17-2016 at 08:49 AM.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    If we knew Mike, we can turn on at will the algae in Tim's pond, and I can have a half year with algae, and a half year without.

    The feature of an RDF now is gin-clear water. The next iteration, could it be half year clear, and half year green. Your wish is my command.

  9. #19
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    LOL... In the old pre-KHV days that is what the leading hobbyists did. Half the year in the greenwater of the mudpond, and half the year in the home pond. Maybe the 'magic of the mudpond' is in the algae.

  10. #20
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Pre-KHV? I'm thinking they stopped the practice to keep their koi from the possibility of mingling with possible KHV carriers? Now, they can have their cake and eat it too. Mike, you can start making a pond to bring back the good ol' days!

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