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Thread: UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi

  1. #11
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    LOL.... It may be a very long time! The effects of UV is the subject of tens of thousands of studies. Simply winnowing them down to ones of possible relevance to koikeeping is a huge task. Hopefully I will find some academic article summarizing research results relating to fish. Meanwhile, keep in mind that the oils/fats consumed are not necessarily as important as the oils/fats produced by the fish.

    That said, there is some suggestion that fish oil consumption can increase toleration of UV exposure:

    J Invest Dermatol. 1995 Oct;105(4):532-5.

    Dietary fish oil reduces basal and ultraviolet B-generated PGE2 levels in skin and increases the threshold to provocation of polymorphic light eruption.

    Rhodes LE1, Durham BH, Fraser WD, Friedmann PS.

    Abstract

    The sunburn response is markedly reduced by dietary fish oil rich in omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Because prostaglandins mediate the vasodilatation, we examined the effect of fish oil on ultraviolet (UV) B-induced prostaglandin metabolism. In addition we assessed the potential photoprotective effect of fish oil in light-sensitive patients. Thirteen patients with polymorphic light eruption received dietary supplements of fish oil rich in omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids for 3 months. At baseline and 3 months, the minimal erythema dose of UVB irradiation was determined, and a graded UVA challenge given to a forearm to assess the threshold dose for papule provocation. Suction blisters were raised on the other forearm, on control skin, and on skin irradiated with four times the minimal erythema dose of UVB 24 h previously, and blister fluid prostaglandin E2 was measured by radioimmunoassay. Following 3 months of fish oil, the mean minimal erythema dose of UVB irradiation increased from 19.8 +/- 2.6 to 33.8 +/- 3.7 mJ/cm2 (mean +/- SEM), p < 0.01. The UVA provocation test was positive in 10 patients at baseline, and after 3 months nine of these showed reduced sensitivity to papule provocation, p < 0.001. Before fish oil, PGE2 increased from 8.6 (SEM 2.1) ng/ml in control skin to 27.2 (11) ng/ml after UVB, p < 0.01. Following 3 months of fish oil, PGE2 decreased to 4.1 (1) and 9.6 (2.4) ng/ml in control and irradiated skin, respectively, p < 0.05. Reduction of UV-induced inflammation by fish oil may be due, at least partially, to lowered prostaglandin E2 levels. The photoprotection against UVA-provocation of a papular response suggests a clinical application for fish oil in polymorphic light eruption.


    ....Do not give up on fish oil too soon, Yerrag.
    Mike, I could hardly understand what the abstract is saying. It is gobbledygook to me. I shoud have the authors lined up and interrogated so they can speak in plain English

    Here is something I enjoy reading:

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles...ted-oils.shtml

    It has better English, and it has references. It is mostly about vegetable oils - the polyunsaturated ones. It mentions also fish oils. It is in the form of a Q&A. Since Ray Peat's concern is mainly on humans, certainly I cannot speak to a 1:1 equivalence with fish. But it's really up to us to determine how applicable they are without being too anthrophomorphic.

  2. #12
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Someone here has two ponds to make experiments with :-) You might want to do some experiments?

    There is plenty of fiber in coconut meat. In fact, coconut meat has plenty of both soluble and insoluble fiber. So it is expected that there would be much mechanical waste. It is a good trade-off for me though. The increase in mechanical waste is easily filtered mechanically, as these are large clumps. It has never been a problem to me. But when the consumption of coconut meat allows the koi to easily metabolize their oils for energy and leads to less use of protein for metabolism to produce energy, less ammonia is produced. Two benefits result - more protein is reserved for use in the koi's growth, and there is less work for the biological filter. Looking at the larger picture, koi development is enhanced as growth factors are enhanced thru more efficient use of protein for growth and through better water parameters.
    Actually feeding green leafy vegetables is good. Not sure if its the same as feeding coconut meat. The 96cm yonsai Hasegawa kohaku that died during the koi show recently was fed regularly with green vegetable aside from koi food by the owner.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Actually feeding green leafy vegetables is good. Not sure if its the same as feeding coconut meat. The 96cm yonsai Hasegawa kohaku that died during the koi show recently was fed regularly with green vegetable aside from koi food by the owner.
    i can agree with that practice. Plenty of calcium for sure. The leaf is the part of the plant where practically all the calcium is found. Aside from that, the leaves also help with the koi coloration.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Mike, I could hardly understand what the abstract is saying. It is gobbledygook to me. I shoud have the authors lined up and interrogated so they can speak in plain English

    Here is something I enjoy reading:

    Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

    It has better English, and it has references. It is mostly about vegetable oils - the polyunsaturated ones. It mentions also fish oils. It is in the form of a Q&A. Since Ray Peat's concern is mainly on humans, certainly I cannot speak to a 1:1 equivalence with fish. But it's really up to us to determine how applicable they are without being too anthrophomorphic.
    The study indicates that consumption of fish oil reduced the risk of sunburn. These results are consistent with numerous further studies. Consumption of fish oil over a period of time increases the types of fatty acids in the skin that react with UV in a manner that helps the skin avoid burning. As a result, sun exposure can be somewhat longer before sunburn occurs.

    You do know that Ray Peat's nutrition theories are controversial, right? Some of what he writes is consistent with nutrition science, but aspects of his theories are contrary to medical and nutrition research. Whenever anyone makes a living preaching their own diets and nutritional theories, I tend to become doubtful. I prefer academics whose professional success is dependent on peer review, debate and acceptance.

  5. #15
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    You may have read Ray Peat's articles and found that below his articles there are always references that show that his ideas are backed by science. Now that we're not living under a rock, and know that mass media makes plenty of "fake news," it is highly probable that there is plenty of "fake science" out there. One side is fake, the other is real. Not sure who to believe? Obviously at this stage you believe one side and I believe the other. There is science that says PUFAs are good for the skin. Then there is the science that says they are bad for the skin. What we can agree on is that what we call science is pretty messed up.

    The term controversial, what does it mean Mike? That it isn't accepted by the mainstream purveyors of of ideas that are acceptable? You say "aspects of his theories are contrary to medical and nutrition research." Is it really? Even with all those well-referenced research? Or is it because making people healthy and not in need of prescription drugs doesn't make money? If you are on medication such as statins and ACE inhibitors, do you feel happy just because you have the privilege of having a first-rate health insurance plan? Or would you rather be plain healthy and not be needy of a costly insurance plan?

    "Whenever anyone makes a living preaching their own diets and nutritional theories, I tend to become doubtful." - Ray Peat does not make money sharing his ideas. Perhaps those people selling diet plans do, but not Ray Peat. Does he pass your test then?

    "I prefer academics whose professional success is dependent on peer review, debate and acceptance." It's like saying I believe Barack Obama is a man of peace because the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded him because he will not resort to bombing innocent civilians using drones and whatever technology available (which he eventually did anyway).

  6. #16
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Consider this. As you go to places that are warmer, examine the plants for their oil contents - in the seeds, leaves etc. You will notice that the plants are like that because that is how they adapted and survived in that climate.

    In the equator, where it is really warm, the plants and their fruit has very high saturated fats in their oils. In temperate climates, especially those areas that are colder, plants tend to have a much lower ratio of saturated fats over polyunsaturated fats.

    Is it just coincidence? Doesn't this make the case for saturated fats being protective from the sun exposure stronger? Think about it. You don't need science to observe that.

  7. #17
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Consider this. As you go to places that are warmer, examine the plants for their oil contents - in the seeds, leaves etc. You will notice that the plants are like that because that is how they adapted and survived in that climate.

    In the equator, where it is really warm, the plants and their fruit has very high saturated fats in their oils. In temperate climates, especially those areas that are colder, plants tend to have a much lower ratio of saturated fats over polyunsaturated fats.

    Is it just coincidence? Doesn't this make the case for saturated fats being protective from the sun exposure stronger? Think about it. You don't need science to observe that.
    You are generalizing all plants. Some plants love the sun. Some indoor tropical plants dont. Also plants cannot be compared to humans nor to fish.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    You are generalizing all plants. Some plants love the sun. Some indoor tropical plants dont. Also plants cannot be compared to humans nor to fish.
    You're in denial. Stick to facts. You can do some research and verify what I said. Instead of shooting off the hip.

  9. #19
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    You're in denial. Stick to facts. You can do some research and verify what I said. Instead of shooting off the hip.
    Not in denial at all. Humans are not fish. Fish are not plants. Thats a fact.

  10. #20
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Not in denial at all. Humans are not fish. Fish are not plants. Thats a fact.
    So much for banalities.

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