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Thread: UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi

  1. #21
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    You may have read Ray Peat's articles and found that below his articles there are always references that show that his ideas are backed by science. Now that we're not living under a rock, and know that mass media makes plenty of "fake news," it is highly probable that there is plenty of "fake science" out there. One side is fake, the other is real. Not sure who to believe? Obviously at this stage you believe one side and I believe the other. There is science that says PUFAs are good for the skin. Then there is the science that says they are bad for the skin. What we can agree on is that what we call science is pretty messed up.

    The term controversial, what does it mean Mike? That it isn't accepted by the mainstream purveyors of of ideas that are acceptable? You say "aspects of his theories are contrary to medical and nutrition research." Is it really? Even with all those well-referenced research? Or is it because making people healthy and not in need of prescription drugs doesn't make money? If you are on medication such as statins and ACE inhibitors, do you feel happy just because you have the privilege of having a first-rate health insurance plan? Or would you rather be plain healthy and not be needy of a costly insurance plan?

    "Whenever anyone makes a living preaching their own diets and nutritional theories, I tend to become doubtful." - Ray Peat does not make money sharing his ideas. Perhaps those people selling diet plans do, but not Ray Peat. Does he pass your test then?

    "I prefer academics whose professional success is dependent on peer review, debate and acceptance." It's like saying I believe Barack Obama is a man of peace because the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded him because he will not resort to bombing innocent civilians using drones and whatever technology available (which he eventually did anyway).

    ??? Yerrag, if you do not consider it important for the ideas of someone who preaches about diet and nutrition to be vetted, there is not much use in me discussing it.

    For everyone else who reads this, I hope they understand that Ray Peat is a controversial self-publisher of contrarian ideas who mixes and matches scientific studies in whatever manner serves his views, even when the studies come to conclusions contrary to his thinking.

  2. #22
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    I've been talking with Troy Head about a Sanke I have. He notified me about this thread. Troy thinks the problem may be that I'm in southern Louisiana and my pond is not shaded, save for a large tree that shades about 3/4 of the pond in the afternoon.

    Looking at this koi, would it appear to be sunburn or caused by the sun?

    The first pic is 2 years ago. The rest were taken last week. There appears to be "white speckling" in the Beni. She is not ill, it's the Beni. The Beni does not appear yellow like Hikui. She is 5 years old and 26".

    I've had problems with Beni breaking down on 2 other koi, all from the same breeder, but all the other koi in my pond have strong Beni with nothing that looks like this. None of these koi were cheap, pond grade koi.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-3-14-15-deep-south-show-2nd-place-size-5-20-inches.jpg   UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-11sanke-faded-sumi-white-red-scales.jpg   UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-11sanke-side-white-scales.jpg   UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-11sanke-side.jpg   UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-11sanke-side1.jpg  

    UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-11sanke-both-white-sides-showing-faded-sumi.jpg   UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi-11sanke-speckled-white.jpg  
    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  3. #23
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    I've been talking with Troy Head about a Sanke I have. He notified me about this thread. Troy thinks the problem may be that I'm in southern Louisiana and my pond is not shaded, save for a large tree that shades about 3/4 of the pond in the afternoon.

    Looking at this koi, would it appear to be sunburn or caused by the sun?

    The first pic is 2 years ago. The rest were taken last week. There appears to be "white speckling" in the Beni. She is not ill, it's the Beni. The Beni does not appear yellow like Hikui. She is 5 years old and 26".

    I've had problems with Beni breaking down on 2 other koi, all from the same breeder, but all the other koi in my pond have strong Beni with nothing that looks like this. None of these koi were cheap, pond grade koi.
    Looks like its hikui. In our tropical country hikui is not uncommon. I myself have a 80cm kohaku that now has it. As a background my pond is not shaded but only receives 3 hours of direct morning till noon sunlight. That particular kohaku had very thick beni and incredible luster when I got her as jumbo tosai. She grew quickly with a perfect chagoi wide like body and as she grew her beni deepened more. That was until she had early signs of hikui similar to yours. I was supposed to trade her once she got it but I wanted to do study her more before I let her go this year.

    Based on what I have gathered, I highly suspect the following cause:
    1. Genetics in the bloodline: I usually update with the dealer the percentages of what happens in different hobbyists ponds the koi coming from many breeders. Over time, the dealer with regular updates from his clients get to know the percentage of success and failures. For that particular breeder there was a lot of hikui failures even from top hobbyist who are very good in keeping good water quality. Base on that statistics the dealer has temporarily stopped getting from that breeder.

    2. Genetics of the skin: it is true that some breeders or middlemen in Japan can determine already that a particular high quality skin is more susceptible to hikui and it would always be a gamble to hobbyist. If the koi did not get hikui by the time it becomes jumbo then you win.

    3. Sunlight: The problem with sunlight is that its effect works both ways. Lessen the sunlight and the koi's skin and thickness lightens. More and the koi's skin can be prone to hikui and sunburn. The way I see it if the koi skin is still that the beni is still developing or slow in getting thick, ample sunlight helps. If the koi skin looks near finish or is quick to mature then ample sunlight can dangerous and a green pond without the problem of poor water quality may be a good thing to sustain the quality of the beni. Case in point, a hobbyist I know of who kept very high quality koi had many hikui issues. Once he covered his pond with more shade sail, his incidence of more hikui dropped.

    4. pond restart.: I think as the pond gets older the incidence and probability of hikui increases. Having now 2 ponds in my home will help me thoroughly clean the pond once every 3 years as I would have the ability to transfer koi whenever I like. When I say clean it would involve not just the filter but the pond walls and pipes as well. This will involve removing the koi from their pond environment, PP the whole pond and then start again with new water. I know the risk of startups is high but so far I have never lost a koi during startups.

    5. Filter management: involves proper maintainance of filters.

    6. Old age. Self explanatory here. Some koi when their old, really get sunburn and hikui easily as their skin has somewhat lost its protective coating on their skin.

  4. #24
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    This koi is 5. She had very thick Beni. I don't know if this has any bearing but she lost all her Sumi her first year. I was told it would come back even stronger. It never did. It looks like ash now.

    This koi did get stressed during a flood in March. She was the only one that didn't get out of the net and leave. However, this started well before the flood.

    I have a shade sail for the pond, I just have to get the Pergola built.

    Why do you think new water would solve this problem? It would seem just the opposite?

    My pond is 11,000 gallons, normally has 11-14 females 28-33". 2 BD's and 4 skimmers to Blue Eco RDF, 2 pumps to shower and 2 TPR's to waterfall. My water quality is always ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0 alkalinity about 51, pH 7.3-7.5.

  5. #25
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    This koi is 5. She had very thick Beni. I don't know if this has any bearing but she lost all her Sumi her first year. I was told it would come back even stronger. It never did. It looks like ash now.

    This koi did get stressed during a flood in March. She was the only one that didn't get out of the net and leave. However, this started well before the flood.

    I have a shade sail for the pond, I just have to get the Pergola built.

    Why do you think new water would solve this problem? It would seem just the opposite?

    My pond is 11,000 gallons, normally has 11-14 females 28-33". 2 BD's and 4 skimmers to Blue Eco RDF, 2 pumps to shower and 2 TPR's to waterfall. My water quality is always ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0 alkalinity about 51, pH 7.3-7.5.
    I do not think even changing enough water can stop hikui. The hobbyist I knew changed like 8tons of water per day on his 80000 liter pond. He had an rdf and bakki setup. and still some of his koi had hikui. I just mentioned that a pond may need to be totally cleaned once in a while and that includes all pipes and walls.

    My thinking is a koi that is prone to hikui needs to be in a green mudpond or green pond most of the time where its skin is constantly nourished by floating algae and where the sun's UV ray cannot penetrate much the water and harm its delicate skin. However this is still not 100% remedy as there are still some koi placed in mudpond still contracting hikui. I do know that if a certain parent produces offsprings prone to hikui that parents are likely not to be used again. That is of course if their buyers or dealers report it which often times are not.
    kntry likes this.

  6. #26
    Sansai
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    4. pond restart.: I think as the pond gets older the incidence and probability of hikui increases. Having now 2 ponds in my home will help me thoroughly clean the pond once every 3 years as I would have the ability to transfer koi whenever I like. When I say clean it would involve not just the filter but the pond walls and pipes as well. This will involve removing the koi from their pond environment, PP the whole pond and then start again with new water. I know the risk of startups is high but so far I have never lost a koi during startups.

    What are you ridding the pond of to stop further breaks of hikui?

    I am 6000 miles away.

    Some of my reds have hikui.

    I have warts on parts of my body.

    I did play with frogs as a kid. lol

    My locally bred reds do not all have it, and nor do my imports.

    What's in the virus theory?

    Garfield

  7. #27
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    ??? Yerrag, if you do not consider it important for the ideas of someone who preaches about diet and nutrition to be vetted, there is not much use in me discussing it.

    For everyone else who reads this, I hope they understand that Ray Peat is a controversial self-publisher of contrarian ideas who mixes and matches scientific studies in whatever manner serves his views, even when the studies come to conclusions contrary to his thinking.
    Mike, I'm sure saying " Ray Peat is a controversial self-publisher of contrarian ideas who mixes and matches scientific studies in whatever manner serves his views, even when the studies come to conclusions contrary to his thinking" is a statement that does not describe you, but I may be wrong.

    Since you have already "vetted" the ideas of Ray Peat and consider them not worthy of discussion, there definitely is not much use in discussing it.

    We can enjoy raising our koi the way we each see fit. After all, beauty is in the eye of the koi keeper, isn't it?

    And so is science.

  8. #28
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
    4. pond restart.: I think as the pond gets older the incidence and probability of hikui increases. Having now 2 ponds in my home will help me thoroughly clean the pond once every 3 years as I would have the ability to transfer koi whenever I like. When I say clean it would involve not just the filter but the pond walls and pipes as well. This will involve removing the koi from their pond environment, PP the whole pond and then start again with new water. I know the risk of startups is high but so far I have never lost a koi during startups.

    What are you ridding the pond of to stop further breaks of hikui?

    I am 6000 miles away.

    Some of my reds have hikui.

    I have warts on parts of my body.

    I did play with frogs as a kid. lol

    My locally bred reds do not all have it, and nor do my imports.

    What's in the virus theory?

    Garfield

    Here are some interesting facts,:

    Scientists estimate that there are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 virus particles in all the world’s seas. They outnumber all cellular life forms by roughly a factor of 10. Scientists have been dimly aware of the staggering scale of the ocean’s virosphere since the late 1980s, but many of the simplest questions about it remained open for years. Scientists couldn’t even say how many species of viruses there were in the oceans.

    An Explosion of Viruses
    Scientists first discovered viruses in sickly tobacco plants in the late 1800s. Yet for nearly a century, marine biologists assumed that the oceans were virtually virus-free. When they looked at seawater under microscopes, they simply didn’t see any viruses, and so they concluded that the oceans were too harsh for viruses to survive in great numbers.
    In the 1980s, a biologist named Lita Proctor decided to take a more careful, systematic look. Her surveys of water from places like the Caribbean and the Sargasso Sea revealed a surprising abundance of viruses. Other researchers went on to confirm that the oceans are indeed a viral soup.
    It became clear that viruses are an important part of the ocean’s ecology, but scientists struggled to study them. Simply staring at a virus through a microscope doesn’t tell you all that much about it. Two viruses that look nearly identical may infect completely different hosts. Since scientists couldn’t tell which hosts the viruses needed in order to replicate, they struggled to rear them in the lab.
    Then in the 1990s, a new way to survey life emerged. Scientists would add chemicals to a sample of seawater (or soil or lake mud or some other material) that would rip apart all the proteins and membranes it contained. Out of that detritus, the scientists could extract all the DNA from the sample in a jumble of fragments. The researchers then sequenced the fragments and pieced them together into larger DNA segments. Finally, they could compare these genetic sequences to those of known species — finding either an exact match, or a sequence from a closely related species.
    This method, known as metagenomics, quickly gave scientists a wave of new discoveries about bacteria and other microbes. It transformed the study of human health by allowing scientists to catalog the thousands of species of microbes that live in and on the human body, which had previously been unknown because they couldn’t be grown outside of our inner jungles.
    But ocean viruses don’t surrender their secrets so easily to metagenomics. All cellular species, from E. coli to fin whales, have a core set of genes in common. Viruses, on the other hand, have no such universal set of genes. When scientists gather genes from a virus that’s new to science, they often find that almost none of its genes bear any resemblance to any previously discovered viral gene. In addition, viruses often pick up new genes, either from other species of viruses, or from their hosts. When scientists isolate one piece of genetic material from an unknown virus, it can be difficult to determine where it came from.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/0521-ocean-viruses/


    So what are the chances of certain type of virus will begin to propagate in a close environment in a pond after some time? Yes these virus may not harm the koi health but may in fact may cause attack on certain microbes and cells that help protect the epidermis layer of the beni of the koi. But how do one explain why some koi are unaffected? We cannot actually as unless this possibility is studied in depth we may never know. However there are circumstantial evidence that points to:
    1. Young koi with developing beni are seldom affected
    2. Filters that are poorly maintain has more probability to cause Hikui
    3. The longer the pond matures the higher chances of one koi gets a hikui however this does not apply to all.

    Some hobbyist who have encountered continuous incidence of hikui in their pond do "reset" their pond and filters and some swear it has greatly reduced more hikui outbreak.. But then again, it could have been a combination of several factors that the hobbyist like I said such as avoiding getting certain koi from farms, better maintenance of filter , reducing sunlight UV exposure or even change in food aside from "resetting and thoroughly cleaning the pond."

  9. #29
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    3. Sunlight: The problem with sunlight is that its effect works both ways. Lessen the sunlight and the koi's skin and thickness lightens. More and the koi's skin can be prone to hikui and sunburn. The way I see it if the koi skin is still that the beni is still developing or slow in getting thick, ample sunlight helps. If the koi skin looks near finish or is quick to mature then ample sunlight can dangerous and a green pond without the problem of poor water quality may be a good thing to sustain the quality of the beni. Case in point, a hobbyist I know of who kept very high quality koi had many hikui issues. Once he covered his pond with more shade sail, his incidence of more hikui dropped.
    I'm glad you are using your powers of observation. No one will accuse you of using observation to replace science. And no one will say what you're saying is not supported by science. This is the fun of it. Let's not get weighed down by "scientific studies" especially when we don't know which science to believe. So let's just say we have "therories." And since we can share our experiences, even if they are "anecdoctal," - a term usually used to belittle observations, we can use such sharing to enlighten each other.

    I'm sure no one intentionally seeks to mislead here in this forum. And I'm sure we want to get the best know-how to raise our koi to the best of the potential.

    So, here is my piece: Yes, sunlight is good. I agree. And yes, it can be harsh also. We have seasons. There are times where the pond needs no shading. There are times when shading is needed. In the heat of summer, shading is a must.

    But I also believe that koi should be given food that is suitable for its climate and season. When you are in the northern fringe of the northern hemisphere, or in the southern fringe of the southern hemisphere, where there is less sun, there is less need of saturated fats. Saturated fats become rigid, and the oils in koi need to be pliable in such water. In these areas, foods available to koi in the natural environment would contain little or no saturated fats. And if there are saturated fats, these foods would also contain a higher ratio of polyunsaturated fats than saturated fats.

    But in the tropics, and as we get closer to the equator, there is more need for saturated fats. The food available for koi to eat in the natural environment would also contain fats where saturated fats are higher than polyunsaturated fats. That is only to be expected, as saturated fats are stable and can withstand heat. There is less need for polyunsaturated fats, and by less I mean close to zero. In the same way that feeding saturated fats would be counterproductive in a cold environment, where saturated fats would become solid and keep the koi tissues from being pliant and flexible; the feeding of polyunsaturated fats in a warm environment would be just as harmful, as the PUFAs (polyunsaturated fats) would oxidize easily, and this would not be helpful to building healthy tissues- such as skin.

    Even if a koi were living in a well-shaded pond in the tropics, it will still be affected by the warmer waters coming from the sun. If this koi were eating food rich in PUFAs, its adipose tissues would also contain PUFAs. Because koi skin layers contain adipose tissue, the condition of koi skin would be affected by adipose tissues that break down due to oxidation.

    My solution would be to change the food. Eliminate fish oils. Introduce saturated fats such as coconut oil.

    Kntry, you are the expert on your weather there. If the weather gets to the freezing point of coconut oil, you should stop feeding coconut oil to your koi.

    The problem I see here is that if your koi is the very expensive one, you would rather toe the line. I understand that. It's hard to risk something on a theory. Then again, it's just your willingness to experiment on a cheaper koi that's holding you back.

  10. #30
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post

    But in the tropics, and as we get closer to the equator, there is more need for saturated fats. The food available for koi to eat in the natural environment would also contain fats where saturated fats are higher than polyunsaturated fats. That is only to be expected, as saturated fats are stable and can withstand heat. There is less need for polyunsaturated fats, and by less I mean close to zero. In the same way that feeding saturated fats would be counterproductive in a cold environment, where saturated fats would become solid and keep the koi tissues from being pliant and flexible; the feeding of polyunsaturated fats in a warm environment would be just as harmful, as the PUFAs (polyunsaturated fats) would oxidize easily, and this would not be helpful to building healthy tissues- such as skin.

    Even if a koi were living in a well-shaded pond in the tropics, it will still be affected by the warmer waters coming from the sun. If this koi were eating food rich in PUFAs, its adipose tissues would also contain PUFAs. Because koi skin layers contain adipose tissue, the condition of koi skin would be affected by adipose tissues that break down due to oxidation.

    My solution would be to change the food. Eliminate fish oils. Introduce saturated fats such as coconut oil.
    You would be hard to convince koi hobbyist not to feed any koi food based on fish meal. All fish meal naturally contain fish oil. Shifting to just only low protein coconut meat or beef or chicken based proteins(which are not the natural diet of fish) for koi would be hard for any koi hobbyist to accept when good quality known commercial koi food has been successful in raising very beautiful koi that win from small to jumbo sizes all around the world including tropical countries. If feeding coconut meat stops hikui, improves immunity and eliminates skin problems in koi, are you saying all your koi have never had any skin issues?

    Btw, you can easily test your theory by getting 2 small vats putting 1 more or less identical quality koi in each vat. Feed one vat with just coconut meat while the other one a Saki Hikari color plus growth and feed exposed both to 6 hours of sunlight. Check results after one month.

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