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Thread: UV Sunlight Exposure Affects On Koi

  1. #41
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    This is one reason why in so many years of earnestly trying to raise koi for show, you still are going in circles. Your talk simply ends up with you relying on the word of koi food manufacturers, as if they are the only ones who know what's good food for your koi.

    It won't occur to you, but maybe I can ask the readers of this forum, and they could think it over, without having to shoot off the hip just because they don't need to defend having "invested" so much in ponds, equipment, techniques, and food with nothing to show for it. The more someone spends on something, the more he's invested in the idea of him being right all along, and the more he ends up denying himself the benefit of discovering new things. You seem to have the makings of such an invested person.

    This is an analogy again, and sorry if it pisses you off you can't comprehend analogies. If Japanese wear thick clothing because of the cold weather, should Filipinos wear thick clothing just because the Japanese do, without considering the local weather?

    Similarly, if Japanese have success with feeding certain koi food with their koi, and their koi end up being the best looking, should Filipinos follow the Japanese in feeding the same food, because that food is the "food of champions" with various testimonials? If those koi are fed food with oils that are appropriate for the Japanese climate, which is colder, and they end up looking really nice, should similar koi be fed the same food with the same oil content in the warmer (or hotter) climate of the Philippines? I've told you about saturated fats and polyunsaturated fats, and how they differ, and how in warmer areas a higher proportion of saturated fats over polyunsaturated fats is needed. And why it makes sense to consider using coconut meat to increase the saturated fat content of foods here. I tell you it is a theory I'm working on, and this is in the interest of sharing and discussion.

    You're really not interested in such discussions. You simply like to justify what you have "invested" in. Man up. If you can consider that there is a possibility there is something you're doing that's wrong, then you would open up to ideas that may help you, and applying these ideas may help you improve on your koi keeping. But if you have to insist on your "gospel," just because it is accepted and almost everyone agrees on it, I can't help you.

    You tell me you can't test on expensive koi. Fair enough. I tell you test on decent koi that isn't expensive. You demur again. This time it's an excuse. Hey, this is not to my benefit. I don't have to prove to myself. You need to prove to yourself if what you're currently doing can be improved upon.

    So, have you reported to us whether your experiment of having your koi swim in a perpetual vortex worked well in improving your koi's conformation? I bet it failed and you just want to keep your failures to yourself. At least I'm sharing my failures as well. I have an ego, but it's not as large as yours.

  2. #42
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    This is one reason why in so many years of earnestly trying to raise koi for show, you still are going in circles. Your talk simply ends up with you relying on the word of koi food manufacturers, as if they are the only ones who know what's good food for your koi.

    It won't occur to you, but maybe I can ask the readers of this forum, and they could think it over, without having to shoot off the hip just because they don't need to defend having "invested" so much in ponds, equipment, techniques, and food with nothing to show for it. The more someone spends on something, the more he's invested in the idea of him being right all along, and the more he ends up denying himself the benefit of discovering new things. You seem to have the makings of such an invested person.

    This is an analogy again, and sorry if it pisses you off you can't comprehend analogies. If Japanese wear thick clothing because of the cold weather, should Filipinos wear thick clothing just because the Japanese do, without considering the local weather?

    Similarly, if Japanese have success with feeding certain koi food with their koi, and their koi end up being the best looking, should Filipinos follow the Japanese in feeding the same food, because that food is the "food of champions" with various testimonials? If those koi are fed food with oils that are appropriate for the Japanese climate, which is colder, and they end up looking really nice, should similar koi be fed the same food with the same oil content in the warmer (or hotter) climate of the Philippines? I've told you about saturated fats and polyunsaturated fats, and how they differ, and how in warmer areas a higher proportion of saturated fats over polyunsaturated fats is needed. And why it makes sense to consider using coconut meat to increase the saturated fat content of foods here. I tell you it is a theory I'm working on, and this is in the interest of sharing and discussion.

    You're really not interested in such discussions. You simply like to justify what you have "invested" in. Man up. If you can consider that there is a possibility there is something you're doing that's wrong, then you would open up to ideas that may help you, and applying these ideas may help you improve on your koi keeping. But if you have to insist on your "gospel," just because it is accepted and almost everyone agrees on it, I can't help you.

    You tell me you can't test on expensive koi. Fair enough. I tell you test on decent koi that isn't expensive. You demur again. This time it's an excuse. Hey, this is not to my benefit. I don't have to prove to myself. You need to prove to yourself if what you're currently doing can be improved upon.

    So, have you reported to us whether your experiment of having your koi swim in a perpetual vortex worked well in improving your koi's conformation? I bet it failed and you just want to keep your failures to yourself. At least I'm sharing my failures as well. I have an ego, but it's not as large as yours.
    First of all, i did test before putting a koi swim in a perpetual vortex in a qt. Its useless and in fact made the koi in genral worst but I did test it myself. I did not ask someone with 2 ponds to test. At present all my ponds does not employ any TPR and the current is weak and unidirectional.

    Suggesting me to buy a cheap koi to be thrown away after the experiment stage is not my thing. I see no point in testing to prove your theory. If it fails i am not compensated at all for my time and cost. The result unless its in a controlled experiment cannot and will not stand scrutinity as many factors are in play. This is no excuse. That is a fact. That is being practical. Test your theories by youself first in a controlled experiment like what I did during a continual vortex QT. Report on the result yourself instead of suggesting me to use my 2 ponds for a useless experiment. This is not about ego at all.

    Your theory is indeed interesting but as controversial like Ray Peat. Prove your detractors wrong instead of hiding behind theoretic ideas of Ray Peat I would bet DOES NOT even know a thing about koi. Call him and ask him what he thinks of beni, shiroji and sumi and keeping koi alive to reach jumbo in a close environment? Post here his opinion with regards to the short term and long term effect of feeding coconut meat and replacing unsaturated fats found in koi food to saturated fats. That would be interesting.

    Would I trust Ray Peat or would I trust saki Hikari who had been in thr.business of koi food for a long time? In your mind me and others dismissing Ray Peat's "expert opinion on koi food." Is being stubborn, "going around in cirlcles, not being open minded. You.tell me if that is related to ego and you ask any long time or even new hobbyist who they prefer to listen and trust. 10 out of 10 will not pick ray peat over saki hiksri when it comes to koi food I assure. So far not one here in koi bito has showed in any favor to your arguement.

    And for the record, the temperatures in japanese mudpond can reach to as high as 28C and for the very best quality koi paid by their customers they feed quality commercial koi food. And for the record again these koi breeders wear summer clothes when they feed their koi in summer. And it is a fact that in some big farm they extend their feeding by keeping koi in a heated indoor pond with ample sunlight.

  3. #43
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    I really don't need to go to Japan to see a kabuki play. Thanks for the free entertainment.

  4. #44
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I really don't need to go to Japan to see a kabuki play. Thanks for the free entertainment.
    Great logical counter arguement reply...bravo

  5. #45
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    MCA: All the more important to put a pergola or roof over the concrete display pond and put koi in a mud pond over the summer. The turbid water in a mud pond will provide lots of UV protection.
    Could you please describe UV burn on the body of a fish.

    Garfield.

  6. #46
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Consider this. As you go to places that are warmer, examine the plants for their oil contents - in the seeds, leaves etc. You will notice that the plants are like that because that is how they adapted and survived in that climate.

    In the equator, where it is really warm, the plants and their fruit has very high saturated fats in their oils. In temperate climates, especially those areas that are colder, plants tend to have a much lower ratio of saturated fats over polyunsaturated fats.

    Is it just coincidence? Doesn't this make the case for saturated fats being protective from the sun exposure stronger? Think about it. You don't need science to observe that.
    I remember seeing in older Nichirin mags a product called Manda Nishiki. It was produced by "fermenting a fine selection of more than 50 different kinds of native plants in Japan." Supposedly it "1) enhanced Hi, 2) brightened body surface, 3) stimulated their growth"...

  7. #47
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    I remember seeing in older Nichirin mags a product called Manda Nishiki. It was produced by "fermenting a fine selection of more than 50 different kinds of native plants in Japan." Supposedly it "1) enhanced Hi, 2) brightened body surface, 3) stimulated their growth"...
    A great product then. I think it provides some nutrients or substances that a deficiency of would act like a limiting factor in the development of koi.

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