Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 84
Like Tree15Likes

Thread: Can Salt Help Koi Deal With Cold?

  1. #61
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    1 pound of salt per 100 gallons is a very low concentration. Back in the 80s it was popular to maintain that concentration in a Koi pond. Now days, when salt is used by some hobbyists as a treatment, they use 3 - 6 pounds of salt per 100 gallons.

  2. #62
    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    1 pound of salt per 100 gallons is a very low concentration. Back in the 80s it was popular to maintain that concentration in a Koi pond. Now days, when salt is used by some hobbyists as a treatment, they use 3 - 6 pounds of salt per 100 gallons.
    Interesting... I did not know that. I don't plan on using salt anytime soon, but next time I will check concentration. In five years I have used salt four times, for new arrivals. Perhaps I have just been getting lucky, which is actually a real possibility. Disease identification and treatment is definately a weak subject for me and I have little experience. I guess that's a good thing...kinda.

  3. #63
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    1 pound of salt per 100 gallons is a very low concentration. Back in the 80s it was popular to maintain that concentration in a Koi pond. Now days, when salt is used by some hobbyists as a treatment, they use 3 - 6 pounds of salt per 100 gallons.
    1 pound of salt per 100 gallons is roughly 0.1% salt. [454g/(100*3.8*1000)]*100 = 0.12%. But if the salt has 10% moisture, it comes out to around 0.11%. For convenience, that could be rounded off to 0.10%.

    If a koi is helped by salt because salt aids in the osmoregulatory function of the koi, I consider koi to be helped in all other aspects. A lot of energy is spent by the koi for keeping its internal fluids at 0.9% salinity. I think that having salt aids conserve energy, espeially when the koi can use the conserved energy to better use, especially when it is subject to stresses, both internally and externally. Stress from nitrate and stress from external wounds are not the only stress to be considered. There are internal stresses, from internal wounds as well as bacteria and virus. And external stresses as well, such as bacteria, virus, and parasites.

    I don't think salt is the answer to everything, but it certainly will help. I will also employ good bacteria. I can use herbal supplements, as well as antibiotics, depending on the gravity of the situation. But I won't just give my koi the works as I adhere to the old Hippocratic principle of "First, Do No Harm."

    I would be more inclined to use salt first though, before I use antibiotics. This is a preference of mine. I just don't like its use as I personally feel that the usual broad spectrum antibiotics just "throws the baby away with the bathwater." I may end up with a koi that survives, but I don't want a koi to merely survives, I don't want the antibiotic to leave the kioi with a microbiome that is non-existent, which would hamper the development oif my koi.

    Sometimes, I feel the aversion to the use of salt has caused many hobbyist to be trigger-happy with the use of antibiotics. As Tim (Appliance Guy) says, there is too much bad said about salt. This needs to be balanced by an equally balanced aversion towards the wanton use of antibiotics.

  4. #64
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    1 pound of salt per 100 gallons is roughly 0.1% salt. [454g/(100*3.8*1000)]*100 = 0.12%. But if the salt has 10% moisture, it comes out to around 0.11%. For convenience, that could be rounded off to 0.10%.

    If a koi is helped by salt because salt aids in the osmoregulatory function of the koi, I consider koi to be helped in all other aspects. A lot of energy is spent by the koi for keeping its internal fluids at 0.9% salinity. I think that having salt aids conserve energy, espeially when the koi can use the conserved energy to better use, especially when it is subject to stresses, both internally and externally. Stress from nitrate and stress from external wounds are not the only stress to be considered. There are internal stresses, from internal wounds as well as bacteria and virus. And external stresses as well, such as bacteria, virus, and parasites.

    I don't think salt is the answer to everything, but it certainly will help. I will also employ good bacteria. I can use herbal supplements, as well as antibiotics, depending on the gravity of the situation. But I won't just give my koi the works as I adhere to the old Hippocratic principle of "First, Do No Harm."

    I would be more inclined to use salt first though, before I use antibiotics. This is a preference of mine. I just don't like its use as I personally feel that the usual broad spectrum antibiotics just "throws the baby away with the bathwater." I may end up with a koi that survives, but I don't want a koi to merely survives, I don't want the antibiotic to leave the kioi with a microbiome that is non-existent, which would hamper the development oif my koi.

    Sometimes, I feel the aversion to the use of salt has caused many hobbyist to be trigger-happy with the use of antibiotics. As Tim (Appliance Guy) says, there is too much bad said about salt. This needs to be balanced by an equally balanced aversion towards the wanton use of antibiotics.
    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    MikeM mentioned that Doc Johnson once wrote that salt was such a cure-all for many ailments and most parasites.
    At the time he first wrote that, it was once mostly true.
    Now that most of the parasites are virtually immune to its use it is only useful as a concentrated dip and has absolutely no preventive benefit whatsoever.
    The problem is, what Doc Johnson wrote once, has been re-printed and repeated millions of times as though it was still true.
    It isn't. It never will be again. That ship has sailed, hit a reef, and sank... in salty water...
    yerrag; Why do you think now that most of the parasites are virtually immune to salt?

  5. #65
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    yerrag; Why do you think now that most of the parasites are virtually immune to salt?
    Well, that presupposes that parasites weren't immune to salt before; that parasites are now immune to salt because they have been immunized by past practices of indiscriminate salt use. I don't even know if that is a false premise or not.

    It reminds me of dengue in our country. When I was growing up, it was known as H-fever, and we heard little of it. Now, people are afraid of dengue, as if a new and more virulent strain of H-fever has popped out. For me, the H-fever virus had not really morphed much. It's really the immunity of the population that has changed. They say the effect of dengue is more virulent on elderly people. Well, that would be the case most of the time. But why? Because elderly people, because of degeneration that comes with age, would have less immunity. But my moim, 93 years old, hasn't had dengue. And I'm not worried about spraying DEET all over her to keep her from mosquito bites. Yet, I do practice some precautionary measures by keeping mosquitoes at bay in our home. That's because I know I give my mom enough sensible (well,that depends on how brainwashed you are my the mainstream medical institutions) nutrition that gives her the immunity, even at her advanced age, against these viruses carried by mosquito.

    Going back to koi parasites, do you think there's something similar at play here? Did the immunity of the parasites really get better against salt? Or was the use of salt dfferent then and now? Mike mentioned that it had tio take at least 0.6% to kill parasites. Who's really going to do that in their pond knowing that would kill off the nitrifiers? Were people dips then at 3%? But dips don't really solve the problem as there would be parasites left in the general pond. Maybe way back people take more extra precautions that before they introduce a koi to their pond, they would at least put their koi through a 3% dip, and that is why hobbyists in the past had less incidences of parasitic crises in their pond. Who knows right? Did the hobbyists take careful notes and shared their experiences, or were they relying more on hearsay and myths, considering at that time there was no internet to share ideas and to vet myths?

    I am also reminded of healthy cats and unhealthy cats. As far as ticks and lice goes, a healthy cat has no problem with ticks and lice. Somehow, they stay under control naturally without my need for any intervention. I couldn't say the same for unhealthy cats. I don't kow if I can take this analogy to a healthy pond with healthy koi. After all, parasites are parasites and they should be rid of, as they will prey on the koi and the wounds would give opportunity for bacteria and virus. But it begs the question of how koi and carp manage to thrive in the wild, with all the parasites the wild contains, and still these koi are alive and kicking. Ever seen carp breeding like crazy and jumping all over a river? Something must not be right in the real world, right?

    For me, I would say parasites have not really changed. I won't blame their putative stronger immunity to salt as due to indiscriminate use of salt. I would blame it more to koi pond owners that are so protective of their expensive koi, which by the way gets more and more dear, that they would spare no expense at protecting them from harm. In the process, they take away the best thing the koi have - their immunity - by - unnecessary and expensive aids in the form of food, medicine, disinfectants, etc.,that rob away their innate ability to defend and provide for their health.

    Not that everything artificial is bad, it's knowing when to rely on nature and knowing when to get some man-made help that would determine how well koi develops.

    I agree with what PapaBear is saying about just providing a clean and healthy environment for the koi. And I think everyone agrees with that precept. But not everyone agrees on how that is done, and that makes for a lot of difference, the approach that is.

    Salt is like the Rodney Dangerfield of the koi world. Very much so. I think it has a lot to do with it being practically free. No one makes money of it. It has no backer- an orphan only because it is too nice and generous on our pocket, but too stingy to the bottoml ine of the purveyors of all that is scientific and modern and cutting edge.

  6. #66
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    ***

    If a koi is helped by salt because salt aids in the osmoregulatory function of the koi, I consider koi to be helped in all other aspects. A lot of energy is spent by the koi for keeping its internal fluids at 0.9% salinity. I think that having salt aids conserve energy, espeially when the koi can use the conserved energy to better use, especially when it is subject to stresses, both internally and externally. Stress from nitrate and stress from external wounds are not the only stress to be considered. There are internal stresses, from internal wounds as well as bacteria and virus. And external stresses as well, such as bacteria, virus, and parasites. ***
    The idea that if low salt is good for one purpose, it is always good, does not hold up IMO. Keep in mind that carp evolved in a freshwater environment and the refinement of carp into koi has occurred in freshwater. As a result, the osmotic system of the fish is geared to expelling water. With the water, the fish is also expelling metabolic wastes. When we interfere by adding salt to the water, there is less 'in-flow' and therefore less for the fish to expel... and therefore metabolic wastes are eliminated at a reduced rate. This is all very minor at 0.1%, but there is a minor negative as well as a minor positive. IMO, interference with the natural state of the fish should only occur when there is a reason. An open wound is such a reason. Protecting against nitrite is another.

    Most of what we do in keeping koi is about addressing the consequences of keeping them in an artificial environment. For me, adding salt on a continuing basis simply increases the artificiality of the pond environment. ...I guess I'm into a 'less is more' philosophy of koikeeping.
    MCA and PapaBear like this.

  7. #67
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    The idea that if low salt is good for one purpose, it is always good, does not hold up IMO. Keep in mind that carp evolved in a freshwater environment and the refinement of carp into koi has occurred in freshwater. As a result, the osmotic system of the fish is geared to expelling water. With the water, the fish is also expelling metabolic wastes. When we interfere by adding salt to the water, there is less 'in-flow' and therefore less for the fish to expel... and therefore metabolic wastes are eliminated at a reduced rate. This is all very minor at 0.1%, but there is a minor negative as well as a minor positive. IMO, interference with the natural state of the fish should only occur when there is a reason. An open wound is such a reason. Protecting against nitrite is another.

    Most of what we do in keeping koi is about addressing the consequences of keeping them in an artificial environment. For me, adding salt on a continuing basis simply increases the artificiality of the pond environment. ...I guess I'm into a 'less is more' philosophy of koikeeping.
    There must be some sort of misunderstanding here. No one in this thread has advocated having their Koi pond in a permanent condition of having salt. At worst, it is my suggestion of using salt at cold temperatures conditions. Unless we're talking polar, it doesn't imply a permanent state. I hope that clears the air.

    That koi are better off in salt-less water is an assumption that we readily accept merely because we also accept it is their natural environment. This assumes Koi have adapted to this condition and would fare less in more saline conditions. But where is the proof?

    Perhaps it can be said, and it may have been observed, that Koi skin would develop better in non-saline water. That may be true, but it's not akin to saying Koi will be healthier in non-saline water.

    If koi were subjected to salinity for say a period of 3 months each year in cold weather, would that make the Koi weaker, immunity-wise? Or would it destroy the skin of the Koi? What if it the salt helped the Koi deal with the stress during these stressful period, wouldn't that turn out helping the Koi develop?

    Perhaps I should have asked this question the first time around: Has anyone ever tried this and had negative results, to live and tell about his or experience?

    Or are we having a group knee-jerk reaction here?

  8. #68
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    It reminds me of dengue in our country. When I was growing up, it was known as H-fever, and we heard little of it. Now, people are afraid of dengue, as if a new and more virulent strain of H-fever has popped out. For me, the H-fever virus had not really morphed much. It's really the immunity of the population that has changed. They say the effect of dengue is more virulent on elderly people. Well, that would be the case most of the time. But why? Because elderly people, because of degeneration that comes with age, would have less immunity. But my moim, 93 years old, hasn't had dengue. And I'm not worried about spraying DEET all over her to keep her from mosquito bites. Yet, I do practice some precautionary measures by keeping mosquitoes at bay in our home. That's because I know I give my mom enough sensible (well,that depends on how brainwashed you are my the mainstream medical institutions) nutrition that gives her the immunity, even at her advanced age, against these viruses carried by mosquito.

    I understand you better now.

  9. #69
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Manila, Philippines
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I understand you better now.
    Yet we hardly know each other. A penny for your thoughts.

  10. #70
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Davenport, Oklahoma
    Posts
    6,726
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    The idea that if low salt is good for one purpose, it is always good, does not hold up IMO. Keep in mind that carp evolved in a freshwater environment and the refinement of carp into koi has occurred in freshwater. As a result, the osmotic system of the fish is geared to expelling water. With the water, the fish is also expelling metabolic wastes. When we interfere by adding salt to the water, there is less 'in-flow' and therefore less for the fish to expel... and therefore metabolic wastes are eliminated at a reduced rate. This is all very minor at 0.1%, but there is a minor negative as well as a minor positive. IMO, interference with the natural state of the fish should only occur when there is a reason. An open wound is such a reason. Protecting against nitrite is another.

    Most of what we do in keeping koi is about addressing the consequences of keeping them in an artificial environment. For me, adding salt on a continuing basis simply increases the artificiality of the pond environment. ...I guess I'm into a 'less is more' philosophy of koikeeping.
    My sentiments exactly. Any treatment protocol, be it injected, oral, water additives, or simple salt should serve a direct need. Anything entering the pond that alters the best "natural" environment we can maintain is foreign to their physiology and as such creates its own niche of stress to the system. We use those very few necessary things to accomplish a narrowly defined purpose (like dechlor for instance), in order to promote a healthy environment. Less really is more most of the time.

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. swimming pools salt or salt watersoflner
    By thanhsonnguyen in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-02-2012, 12:26 AM
  2. Koi Cold ?????
    By Bobby in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-08-2010, 04:03 PM
  3. Did I get a good deal on this setup?
    By Sangreaal in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-04-2008, 09:27 AM
  4. Koi Bito..... The Magazine.... What's The Deal
    By woodyaht in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-15-2007, 08:24 PM
  5. Cold koi
    By dizzyfish in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-12-2006, 11:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com