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Thread: To Tickle Your Mind: Why Humans, or Koi, Get Pot Belly or "Egg-Bound"

  1. #11
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Again, it's hard to make you think otherwise, as you stick with what your expert says. You can always reconsider. For other readers, who have more open minds, you are free to try my ideas. It's worked for me. I'm simply sharing. But it's difficult really to go against conventional wisdom with all their experts. It is an exercise in futility, as people tend to see science as religion.

    I'm saving you the trouble of being always told "tough luck, it's the genes." If people are doing it wrong because they're being led astray, if you do refuse to be led astray and end up doing it right, then you have an edge. But it's not about having an edge, it's just about doing the right thing. You're discovering and learning. But if you're always "by the book," which I think is unfortunate, then you're always going to hit the brick wall and you're always going to be left scratching your head. You can keep on making tweaks, endless tweaks in fact, but if you got your foundation wrong, all that counts for nothing.

    It's really not complicated. If you un-complicate it.
    I think you are right considering Ray Peat is considered an expert in fish nutrition by some.

  2. #12
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    I think you are right considering Ray Peat is considered an expert in fish nutrition by some.
    Some people have to learn the hard way. Some never. Some people see parallels and can see similarities and distinctions. Some blindly follow and don't question. I have a good idea where you stand.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Reason:

    Polyunsaturated fats Consumption- The presence of polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs) in the blood, also called free fatty acids, keep our body from utilizing glucose. PUFAs are metabolized instead of sugar, meaning that our cells use PUFAs for energy, instead of glucose. Glucose that's left unused (because PUFAs are taking their place) increase the blood sugar, and the increase in blood sugar elicits insulin reaction. Insulin would then convert the blood sugar to fats. Simply put, PUFAs such as fish oil have this effect. While what I describe happens with people, I'm not too sure this cause and effect relationship applies to koi. So, if someone understand koi physiology here, it would be nice to hear that perspective.

    But, assuming koi in this aspect of physiology act like humans, it would make sense to let your koi stay away from fish oil.

    The result might be a better shaped koi, with better conformation. You may find that you may not need to deal with "egg-bound" koi the way you usually do - by fasting them.

    Fasting koi may seem a good thing, given the many good things this forum and other forum speaks highly of it. Sure, it will improve the skin, but that's only because it reduces the ammonia in the water. But if you can avoid feeding koi such that they become "egg-bound," wouldn't you prefer to do so?

    The conventional wisdom says fish oil is good. But for the intrepid few who want to question conventional wisdom and can, why not try this on tosai koi and see how they develop by making them stay away from fish oil?

    In another thread, I also argue about the harmful effect of consuming PUFAs as far as sensitivity to sunlight and skin quality is concerned. It has come down to which faction of science is to be believed. This is no different.

    If you want to find out, you can test it on some inexpensive koi. When convinced, you can upgrade to better koi.

    Just a little alternative opinion that could open your mind to ideas other than the oft-peddled mainstream thought.
    It seems to me that a lot of 'apples and oranges' are getting confused. As an initial matter, keep in mind that fish metabolize fats to create fish oil.... The only way you avoid fish oil in fish is to get rid of the fish. Also, the studies about fish oil/PUFA 'sensitivity to sunlight' do not show harm to the skin due to those oils. To the contrary, fish oil reduces harm to the skin. The reaction of fatty acids in the skin layers to UV exposure reflects the mechanism by which the skin is protected. It is not a negative. It is a beneficial reaction.

    The alternative to using foods with fish oil in them would seem to be using foods with saturated fats. Saturated fats are most readily found in mammalian meat products, but it has long been known that such food sources are not good for koi (or other fish) because their systems are not designed to digest such foods. The result is increased waste production and nutritive imbalance.

    To the extent any improvement in body form is observed, I would suggest is due to reduced caloric in-take because the food is not as digestible. A similar result could be accomplished by feeding less of a food designed for use with koi.

    The nutritional needs of fish, including carp, are the subject of innumerable studies and more studies are constantly being conducted. These are nearly always geared to the needs of aquaculture and can be criticized as too focused on weight production, rather than determining long term health needs. Nonetheless, there is no reason for typical hobbyists to attempt to out-think the scientific minds which have focused on the subject for the past several decades. If somebody wants to set up separate ponds and experiment, that's fine. It's their koi. I would not encourage the non-scientifically inclined to do so. Although it does seem to me that it is often the folks least scientifically-inclined who do the most experimenting. It is the search for the elixir of eternal life.

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