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  1. #21
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    In a way, hikkui does reflect on the health of a koi. An old person may continue to live, but he may have many wrinkles. Wrinkles are a result of degeneration, and the degeneration may occur on a relatively young person, and is not exdusive to elderly people. Such degeneration reflects on the health of the subject. Same things goes for shimmi. Have you seen people with age spots? Are age spots hereditary? In the same way, shimmies cannot definitely be considered genetic.

    To continue to live does not mean one is healthy. It only means one is surviving while not being at 100%.

  2. #22
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    In a way, hikkui does reflect on the health of a koi. An old person may continue to live, but he may have many wrinkles. Wrinkles are a result of degeneration, and the degeneration may occur on a relatively young person, and is not exdusive to elderly people. Such degeneration reflects on the health of the subject. Same things goes for shimmi. Have you seen people with age spots? Are age spots hereditary? In the same way, shimmies cannot definitely be considered genetic.

    To continue to live does not mean one is healthy. It only means one is surviving while not being at 100%.
    Since you have now equated with humans, does being bald or having psoriasis means one is not healthy as well?

  3. #23
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Since you have now equated with humans, does being bald or having psoriasis means one is not healthy as well?
    Does a bald woman win beauty contests?

    Are you happy to boast about having psoriasis? Or do you at least try to get it resolved?

    Are you born bald? Are you born with psoriasis?

    Is your koi born with hikkui? Or with shimmie?

    Do koi with hikkui and shimmie have a good chance of winning at koi shows? (yes, that's beside the point.)

    Do you think baldness can't be helped, because it is purely genetic? Maybe you just don't know enough about how baldness can be prevented? If there is an underlying physological condition that can be resolved, and baldness is prevented, would you not call the absence of this physiological condition a sign of health?

    Ditto with psoriasis?

    Of course, you are brainwashed with this medical drivel that everything is about the genes, and every condition you cannot explain is inherited. Crock.

    p.s. I don't equate koi with humans. Neither do I think koi and humans are not from the same planet. I explain in human terns to go to a level you can understand, but still you don't get it. Can't help but feel amused.You still think the world was created in 7 days?

  4. #24
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Does a bald woman win beauty contests?

    Are you happy to boast about having psoriasis? Or do you at least try to get it resolved?

    Are you born bald? Are you born with psoriasis?

    Is your koi born with hikkui? Or with shimmie?

    Do koi with hikkui and shimmie have a good chance of winning at koi shows? (yes, that's beside the point.)

    Do you think baldness can't be helped, because it is purely genetic? Maybe you just don't know enough about how baldness can be prevented? If there is an underlying physological condition that can be resolved, and baldness is prevented, would you not call the absence of this physiological condition a sign of health?

    Ditto with psoriasis?

    Of course, you are brainwashed with this medical drivel that everything is about the genes, and every condition you cannot explain is inherited. Crock.

    p.s. I don't equate koi with humans. Neither do I think koi and humans are not from the same planet. I explain in human terns to go to a level you can understand, but still you don't get it. Can't help but feel amused.You still think the world was created in 7 days?


    There is a gene that causes natural baldness in humans and this gene is hereditary in males and rare in women. While a person with the bald gene can delay the inevitable by employing modern science, the mere fact that the cause has nothing to do with environmental or food means genes plays a big factor.

    In koi, the possibility of multiple combination of that winning lottery ticket is all in relation also to genes. Likewise, sometimes in achieving that winning combination, problems do occur in the breeding process. What are these unforeseen problems one might ask? Well, if you buy in bulk the same quality grade from a specific breeder using certain sets of oyagoi, and you sell it to a wide array of customers with very knowledgeable koi keeping skills, you more or less have a perceived perhaps biased but founded conclusion which breeds from which farm will give a moderate success and a poor success ratio. Eventually, any smart dealer would eventually stay away for a moment when there is a poor success ratio among his clients.. Whether it be more koi prone to tumour, more koi prone to hikui, more koi prone to shimi, etc as compared to other koi in the same customer pond would all still be in one way or another a question of whether how much the genetics of the koi played.

    I am not going to explain further or be specific in naming farms but what I do know and straight from the breeders themselves is that Breeders will stop breeding a pair of oyagoi if there is a high probability that the offsprings results in major problems like tumours and hikui. I dont know about you but that just tells me something. Its in the genes.

    P.s. I am not stating here that hikui is solely caused by a defective gene. and yes some babies are born bald but grow with hair. some loose and some dont loose their hair eventually but hairloss has nothing to do with most of the time with how healthy or u healthy a person is nor links to lifespan.

  5. #25
    Sansai
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    With the majority of MEN it's all in the JEANS.

    Garfield

  6. #26
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    There is a gene that causes natural baldness in humans and this gene is hereditary in males and rare in women. While a person with the bald gene can delay the inevitable by employing modern science, the mere fact that the cause has nothing to do with environmental or food means genes plays a big factor.

    In koi, the possibility of multiple combination of that winning lottery ticket is all in relation also to genes. Likewise, sometimes in achieving that winning combination, problems do occur in the breeding process. What are these unforeseen problems one might ask? Well, if you buy in bulk the same quality grade from a specific breeder using certain sets of oyagoi, and you sell it to a wide array of customers with very knowledgeable koi keeping skills, you more or less have a perceived perhaps biased but founded conclusion which breeds from which farm will give a moderate success and a poor success ratio. Eventually, any smart dealer would eventually stay away for a moment when there is a poor success ratio among his clients.. Whether it be more koi prone to tumour, more koi prone to hikui, more koi prone to shimi, etc as compared to other koi in the same customer pond would all still be in one way or another a question of whether how much the genetics of the koi played.

    I am not going to explain further or be specific in naming farms but what I do know and straight from the breeders themselves is that Breeders will stop breeding a pair of oyagoi if there is a high probability that the offsprings results in major problems like tumours and hikui. I dont know about you but that just tells me something. Its in the genes.

    P.s. I am not stating here that hikui is solely caused by a defective gene. and yes some babies are born bald but grow with hair. some loose and some dont loose their hair eventually but hairloss has nothing to do with most of the time with how healthy or u healthy a person is nor links to lifespan.
    If there is a baldness gene, it only means that a male person having that gene is merely disposed to be bald, not certain to be bald. That is an important distinction. That disposition to be bald can be overcome by changing one's lifestyle. You can buy a book entitled "Hair Like A Fox," which is available in kindle for a song.

    Genetics is over-rated imho. Not saying it doesn't play a role, but koi GC's still haven't had progeny that were able to clinch GC in the AJKS, no matter the sum fetched for such progeny. Sure, the GC's make great oyagoi, and they make great offspring. And these offspring, after a culling process, become very promising and valuable. Yet, the promise of tategoi becomes more of a reality in the care of breeders, not in the hands of koi keepers that can afford these promising koi. The breeder will not allow the sale of such koi to a buyer unless the buyer agrees to let the breeder continue to care for the koi. This shows that the breeder does not want his efforts at breeding go to waste in the hands of the typically inept koi keeper. By calling a typical koi keeper inept, I mean that koi keepers, even advanced ones, cannot provide the same level of care that the breeder gives. Whatever the care involves, it only shows how much important the nurture aspect is.

    Under the breeder's care, will hikkui and shimmie at a young age be less likely to occur? I believe so. It would be a waste to see a koi not achieve GC because of a shimmie or a hikkui.

    The reality is that we don't really know if that hikkui or that shimmie that we experienced with our koi could have been avoided under the care of somebody who knows better. But to say that hikkui and shimmie is genetic is very convenient, as it is the koi keeper saying "it's not my fault," as it's the genes, and "I am helpless against it." I still think we as koi keepers can still do better, but if we assign the blame to something we can't control, we are just of blinders. And I doubt if the day comes someone figures out a way to avoid hikkui and shimmies, we will even say the nurture aspect has improved. We will say the hikkui gene or the shimmie gene has been eliminated.

  7. #27
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    If there is a baldness gene, it only means that a male person having that gene is merely disposed to be bald, not certain to be bald. That is an important distinction. That disposition to be bald can be overcome by changing one's lifestyle. You can buy a book entitled "Hair Like A Fox," which is available in kindle for a song.

    Genetics is over-rated imho. Not saying it doesn't play a role, but koi GC's still haven't had progeny that were able to clinch GC in the AJKS, no matter the sum fetched for such progeny. Sure, the GC's make great oyagoi, and they make great offspring. And these offspring, after a culling process, become very promising and valuable. Yet, the promise of tategoi becomes more of a reality in the care of breeders, not in the hands of koi keepers that can afford these promising koi. The breeder will not allow the sale of such koi to a buyer unless the buyer agrees to let the breeder continue to care for the koi. This shows that the breeder does not want his efforts at breeding go to waste in the hands of the typically inept koi keeper. By calling a typical koi keeper inept, I mean that koi keepers, even advanced ones, cannot provide the same level of care that the breeder gives. Whatever the care involves, it only shows how much important the nurture aspect is.

    Under the breeder's care, will hikkui and shimmie at a young age be less likely to occur? I believe so. It would be a waste to see a koi not achieve GC because of a shimmie or a hikkui.

    The reality is that we don't really know if that hikkui or that shimmie that we experienced with our koi could have been avoided under the care of somebody who knows better. But to say that hikkui and shimmie is genetic is very convenient, as it is the koi keeper saying "it's not my fault," as it's the genes, and "I am helpless against it." I still think we as koi keepers can still do better, but if we assign the blame to something we can't control, we are just of blinders. And I doubt if the day comes someone figures out a way to avoid hikkui and shimmies, we will even say the nurture aspect has improved. We will say the hikkui gene or the shimmie gene has been eliminated.
    You got it all wrong. Breeders that compete will want to keep a GC potential in Japan because of honor and potential after koishow revenues it brings to the farm. Ask any hobbyist who is the owner of the grandchampion of a particular koi in AjKs and 99.99% would not care about who the owner is but most would know the name of the koi farm that the koi came from. You go to a breeder without grooming and growing facilities or do not care much of AJKS and he would let you have his best tategoi to take home for a hefty price of course. Breeders seldom even ask or care about hobbyist grooming techniques. Why some breeders who dont join koi shows tell their clients to leave the tategoi in Japan is that some breeders want to study the development, earn extra for keeping the koi longer and give the breeder a chance to buy back the koi or sell the koi if the buyer allows for more profit. Believe me when I say that they dont even ask the hobbyist how good or how bad their koi keeping skill is.

    Are breeders in Japan immune from Hikkui incidence. absolutely not. It is uncommon for hobbyist to leave their koi with breeders in Japan only to find out next year the koi died or koi suddenly had hikkui or the koi got injured. Dont get me started with shimis. The breeders are adept at cosmetic surgery to get rid of those shimis.

    Yes perhaps if you constantly put your hikkui prone young koi in a very green big mud pond, that koi may indeed get away with hikkui. But what is the point of that for the breeder who wants to sell the koi to hobbyists who all maintain clear water. Does the breeder recommend to the hobbyist, "Look my koi are indeed high quality yet for the keeping conditions its best to put her always in a green mudpond." Yes for a few kois to a small select clients the breeder can say that but not to his dealer customers that deal with so many clients.

  8. #28
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    If there is a baldness gene, it only means that a male person having that gene is merely disposed to be bald, not certain to be bald. That is an important distinction. That disposition to be bald can be overcome by changing one's lifestyle. You can buy a book entitled "Hair Like A Fox," which is available in kindle for a song.

    Genetics is over-rated imho. Not saying it doesn't play a role, but koi GC's still haven't had progeny that were able to clinch GC in the AJKS, no matter the sum fetched for such progeny. Sure, the GC's make great oyagoi, and they make great offspring. And these offspring, after a culling process, become very promising and valuable. Yet, the promise of tategoi becomes more of a reality in the care of breeders, not in the hands of koi keepers that can afford these promising koi. The breeder will not allow the sale of such koi to a buyer unless the buyer agrees to let the breeder continue to care for the koi. This shows that the breeder does not want his efforts at breeding go to waste in the hands of the typically inept koi keeper. By calling a typical koi keeper inept, I mean that koi keepers, even advanced ones, cannot provide the same level of care that the breeder gives. Whatever the care involves, it only shows how much important the nurture aspect is.

    Under the breeder's care, will hikkui and shimmie at a young age be less likely to occur? I believe so. It would be a waste to see a koi not achieve GC because of a shimmie or a hikkui.

    The reality is that we don't really know if that hikkui or that shimmie that we experienced with our koi could have been avoided under the care of somebody who knows better. But to say that hikkui and shimmie is genetic is very convenient, as it is the koi keeper saying "it's not my fault," as it's the genes, and "I am helpless against it." I still think we as koi keepers can still do better, but if we assign the blame to something we can't control, we are just of blinders. And I doubt if the day comes someone figures out a way to avoid hikkui and shimmies, we will even say the nurture aspect has improved. We will say the hikkui gene or the shimmie gene has been eliminated.
    You got it all wrong. Breeders that compete will want to keep a GC potential in Japan because of honor it brings to the farm. Ask any hobbyist who is the owner of the grandchampion of a particular koi in AjKs and 99.99% would not care about who the owner is but most would know the name of the koi farm that the koi came from. You go to a breeder without grooming and growing facilities or do not care much of AJKS and he would let you have his best tategoi to take home. Breeders seldom even ask or care about hobbyist grooming techniques. Why some breeders who dont join koi shows tell their clients to leave the tategoi in Japan is thst some breeders want to study the development, earn extra for keeping the koi longer and give the breeder a chance to buy back the koi or sell the koi if the buyer allows for more profit. Believe me when I say that they dont even ask the hobbyist how good or how bad their koi keeping skill is.

    Are breeders in Japan immune from Hikkui incidence. absolutely not. It is uncommon for hobbyist to leave their koi with breeders in Japan only to find out next year the koi died or koi suddenly had hikkui or the koi got injured. Dont get me started with shimis. The breeders are adept at cosmetic surgery to get rid of those shimis.

    Yes perhaps if you constantly put your hikkui prone young koi in a very green big mud pond, that koi may indeed get away with hikkui. But what is the point of that for the breeder who wants to sell the koi to hobbyists who all maintain clear water. Does the breeder recommend to the hobbyist, "Look my koi are indeed high quality yet for the keeping conditions its best to put her always in a green mudpond." Yes for a few kois to a small select clients the breeder can say that but not to his dealer customers that deal with so many clients.

  9. #29
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Perhaps it would be helpful if we separate the wheat from the chaff here. I realize when I said breeders I didn't specify the top breeders, which are the successful ones. There's a good reason they are successful, and a good reason why the other breeders can't measure up to them. Perhaps more than a good reason. So I wouldn't be surprised to find breeders experiencing hikkui and shimi often if they don't have the same facilities and practices as the successful top breeders.

    Even then, the top breeders may still experience hikkui and shimi. I don't know the chances of a koi developing them would be. But I would surmise that they are able to keep these to a minimum. Under their care. And they don't trust their wealthy buyers to care for koi that have a good chance at making GC at the AJKS. Maybe I'm wrong, but has there been an AJKS champion that was raised by a koi keeper? It's rather that when breeeder decide the koi has no chance of winning the AJKS that they allow the koi to be shipped to the buyer.

    The question really is not whether these top breeders experience hikkui and shimi. It is a question of how often hikkui and shimi occur. If hikkui and shimi does occur, under these circumstances, I would more easily be swayed by the argument that it has a lot to do with genetics. But I would not readily lump every instance of hikkui and shimi as merely genetics at play.

    Would the shimi have developed if the water were better maintained? Would it have developed if better food were given? Would it have developed if there were a shade sail protecting the koi from the sun at summer's peak?

    To simply point an accusing finger at genetics is not an approach I would take. It's too convenient. And it betrays very much how our minds have been programmed by the medical establishment to think this way. If you can start to think differently with your koi, you may begin to start differently about your health as well. Seriously.

  10. #30
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Perhaps it would be helpful if we separate the wheat from the chaff here. I realize when I said breeders I didn't specify the top breeders, which are the successful ones. There's a good reason they are successful, and a good reason why the other breeders can't measure up to them. Perhaps more than a good reason. So I wouldn't be surprised to find breeders experiencing hikkui and shimi often if they don't have the same facilities and practices as the successful top breeders.

    Even then, the top breeders may still experience hikkui and shimi. I don't know the chances of a koi developing them would be. But I would surmise that they are able to keep these to a minimum. Under their care. And they don't trust their wealthy buyers to care for koi that have a good chance at making GC at the AJKS. Maybe I'm wrong, but has there been an AJKS champion that was raised by a koi keeper? It's rather that when breeeder decide the koi has no chance of winning the AJKS that they allow the koi to be shipped to the buyer.

    The question really is not whether these top breeders experience hikkui and shimi. It is a question of how often hikkui and shimi occur. If hikkui and shimi does occur, under these circumstances, I would more easily be swayed by the argument that it has a lot to do with genetics. But I would not readily lump every instance of hikkui and shimi as merely genetics at play.

    Would the shimi have developed if the water were better maintained? Would it have developed if better food were given? Would it have developed if there were a shade sail protecting the koi from the sun at summer's peak?

    To simply point an accusing finger at genetics is not an approach I would take. It's too convenient. And it betrays very much how our minds have been programmed by the medical establishment to think this way. If you can start to think differently with your koi, you may begin to start differently about your health as well. Seriously.
    Actually there.have been many cases in AjkS where a Japanese buyer bought the koi from a farm, raised it and then let another farm or middleman groom it for AjKs. Overseas buyers do not have the advantage living in Japan and because of the rule of once the koi is exported, reexporting it back to Japan to compete is just not easily done because of restrictions. So overseas buyers that want to compete tend to leave the koi in Japan to groom for possible chance to compete in the future.

    Your statement with regards to how often hikkui occurs in a breeders also relates to hobbyist. For example, my percentage of having a koi getting hikkui is 1 out of probably 30 koi in 7 years and that is because I purchase only around that many koi with beni during that period. If I would have purchased more of koi the percentage would be smaller. On the other hand, during that 2 years when the dealer bought koi from a specific breeder which included mine thst got hikkui, the incidence of that farms koi purchased and sold by the dealer to different hobbyist, many of that particular farms koi eventually got hikkui so much so that the dealer noticed.

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