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Thread: Skin is Everything

  1. #41
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Something smells wrong with your reasoning. Let's take the chicken breast or pigeon breast off the table, shall we? Or do I have to explain it?

    And swim bladder? Are you saying koi with swim bladder problem will continue to have very high quality skin and beni? I think not. A koi with swim bladder will suffer the effects of this problem. The skin quality will suffer. Just give it time. And with swim bladder, time is not very forgiving.

    Tumor and perfect skin quality and beni goes together? Not!! Do I have to explain that as well? Maybe the best case to argue your point is that the koi could be given additives and treatments to pump up the skin and beni appearance for a show, but that kind of short-term and artificial window dressing only leads to sickness, and tumor, and the koi deteriorates later (skin and body) and doesn't get to live long. But hey, it won a prestigious prize, didn't it? Okay, you didn't mean that tumor and skin quality goes together, but that it happens. Are you talking about this situation of a koi having tumor and perfect skin quality being the norm, or an exceptional case? By this, you are using an exception and making it appear like it's the rule. You are so guilty of using this kind of reasoning so often it just becomes so predictable, going the deep end to argue a point. The exception does not prove the rule. If the koi were able to have a significant tumor and still have excellent skin quality and beni, it must truly be an exceptional koi. If it stays that way as it continues to live a long life, I would truly be amazed.

    But tumor, or cancer, is a reflection of imbalance in the physiology of an organism. Tumor develops out of this imbalance. If this imbalance were corrected, the tumor would disappear. Contrary to what conventional medical gospel would have you believe, it is not a gene or a set of genes causing it. So there again, I just blew your tumor and perfect skin quality and beni going together out of the water.

    And koi with perfect skin and lustrous beni suddenly dying of a heart attack. What if there was an external event that caused the heart attack? What if it got struck by ligntning (not likely) or what if there was an electrical wiring fault that caused the koi to get enough current to suffer a cardiac arrest? that's more likely than lightning. What if the koi ate something that caused the heart attack? Like Forrest Gump says "shit happens." You are again conflating things and using an exception to prove a rule. And that isn't even an exception, as you really don't know why the koi with perfect skin and lustrous beni suddenly died. Facts matter, not conjecture.

    As for koi with hikui living a long life, you are confusing a long life with a long life in health. I will give you an example about people again, and I hope you won't cringe this time. Two elderly people lived to a ripe old age of 100. One died in his sleep, after senescence took its toll on him. He died in his home, peacefully. A life lived where he did not rely on a cocktail of prescription drugs. Another died in a hospital, after months of ICU care. He survived for the last forty years on an ever increasing cocktail of prescription drugs, and he was kept off many foods that doctors deemed unsuitable for him. Would you say the length of life solely determines the condition of health of a subject?
    koi are not people. No koi takes prescription drugs. There is absolutely no point in your story of the old people taking prescription drugs to koi. Period.

    Tumours on koi can only be removed by surgery. No such thing if the imbalance was corrected the tumour would disappear. You are like a wise guru but never giving a specific example on how to correct it. and please dont use people as example. Use actual experiences of koi hobbyist for pete's sake. Its always convenient to get analogy from peoples experiences but KOI are NOT HUMANS.

    The problem with your solutions is that its all based on IF.

    Also for the thirteenth time nobody is saying that skin issues like hikkui and shimmies can be traced just genetics. I am just giving facts that breeders if they didnt take issues with hikkui as partly genetics then why would they prefer not to use hikkui prone oyagois.

  2. #42
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Yerrag, I think we are talking past one another at this point??

    I referred to aging in response to your reference to aging.

    Please recall that hikkui oftentimes does go away when the koi is placed in greenwater... without regard to the age of the koi. When returned to clear water, after time goes by, the condition returns. The regenerative capability of the skin does not seem to have anything to do with it.

    Nobody is saying that skin appearance or overall beauty is independent of a koi's general health. All that has been said is that a koi can get hikkui despite being in general good health. This is a known, actual real world observation. ...Just like a healthy athlete can get a skin cancer (likely from too much sun exposure) and still be in wonderful good health in every other respect. I find it too frustrating to try to respond to the question "What if hikkui is skin that has fallen into disrepair because the koi's health is not optimal?" ...What if hikkui is caused by an owl hooting at a full moon when jasmine is in bloom? Who knows, the sound vibrations when light is of a certain wavelength combined with the chemicals emitted by jasmine ...????

    There is an unending number of 'what ifs' that can be postulated if we first refuse to acknowledge actual facts observed by generations of koikeepers.
    Sorry Mike, I'm trying to stay on point with the subject matter. It is about skin quality and my contention that it is a proxy for koi health. Not just general health, but optimal health. Great skin quality reflects the state of a koi at optimal health levels. What we do not agree on is about hikkui and shimi. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that you associate hikkui and shimi as primarily a matter of genetics, whereas I see it a as primarily as case of nurture. You don't discount the effect of nurture, nor do I discount the effect of genetics.

    Your mention of the use of greenwater to resolve cases of hikkui indicates to me that you believe that hiikkui can still be resolved by nurture. But if the hikkui condition is resolved in that manner, it doesn't at all disprove the regenerative capability of koi. It just shows that the gteenwater environment provided the nutrients that were previously missing that made the skin regain its regenerative ability. To ability to heal and the ability to regenerate (these two things are not really the same, just to be sure I don't give you the wrong impression) are functions of healthy organisms. Hikkui being resolved to me may not fall under what we consider regeneration, as in lizards growing new tails for example, but it falls definitely under healing, where the skin is restored to an even color that is not distinct from the suroounding healthy skin.

    That greenwater helps restore hikkui says a lot about how limiting a pond that is bereft of greenwater may not be helpful to the maintenance of skin quality. If theres is something missing that keeps the skin from healing as well and that causes hikkui, the diminishing of this ability to heal is a point subtracted from the health of the koi. Hikkui is only what is visible to us, what if this diminishing of healing ability were to also affect the internal organs of the koi? Okay, it is another "what if" which you and sacicu loathe. But I'm sorry, I'm more nuanced and I think in these terms because I don't have a definitive answer to things, and I would admit I'm muddling through. But it's better to muddle and know that you're muddling, than to be so convinced of one's certitude that it shuts off other possibilities that we simply haven't considered that may turn out to be correct. This isn't being wishy washy, this is being studious and open. But that's just me.

    But equating such open-mindedness to thinking about "an owl hooting at a full moon when jasmine is in bloom" is a pretty low blow. It's an ad hom cloaked in sarcasm that reeks of a lion injured and becoming dangerous. I don't relish being the hunter stalking such a lion.

  3. #43
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Sorry Mike, I'm trying to stay on point with the subject matter. It is about skin quality and my contention that it is a proxy for koi health. Not just general health, but optimal health. Great skin quality reflects the state of a koi at optimal health levels. What we do not agree on is about hikkui and shimi. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that you associate hikkui and shimi as primarily a matter of genetics, whereas I see it a as primarily as case of nurture. You don't discount the effect of nurture, nor do I discount the effect of genetics.

    Your mention of the use of greenwater to resolve cases of hikkui indicates to me that you believe that hiikkui can still be resolved by nurture. But if the hikkui condition is resolved in that manner, it doesn't at all disprove the regenerative capability of koi. It just shows that the gteenwater environment provided the nutrients that were previously missing that made the skin regain its regenerative ability. To ability to heal and the ability to regenerate (these two things are not really the same, just to be sure I don't give you the wrong impression) are functions of healthy organisms. Hikkui being resolved to me may not fall under what we consider regeneration, as in lizards growing new tails for example, but it falls definitely under healing, where the skin is restored to an even color that is not distinct from the suroounding healthy skin.

    That greenwater helps restore hikkui says a lot about how limiting a pond that is bereft of greenwater may not be helpful to the maintenance of skin quality. If theres is something missing that keeps the skin from healing as well and that causes hikkui, the diminishing of this ability to heal is a point subtracted from the health of the koi. Hikkui is only what is visible to us, what if this diminishing of healing ability were to also affect the internal organs of the koi? Okay, it is another "what if" which you and sacicu loathe. But I'm sorry, I'm more nuanced and I think in these terms because I don't have a definitive answer to things, and I would admit I'm muddling through. But it's better to muddle and know that you're muddling, than to be so convinced of one's certitude that it shuts off other possibilities that we simply haven't considered that may turn out to be correct. This isn't being wishy washy, this is being studious and open. But that's just me.

    But equating such open-mindedness to thinking about "an owl hooting at a full moon when jasmine is in bloom" is a pretty low blow. It's an ad hom cloaked in sarcasm that reeks of a lion injured and becoming dangerous. I don't relish being the hunter stalking such a lion.
    I have said in the previous post that green water may indeed help in prolonging the beni life and reducing incidence of hikui. Breeders themselves dont know also why this happens until now. What I surmise is that by doing constant mudpond to concrete pond alternative they may not be able to see or breed out this "hikui gene". On the other hand, breeders who get to raise mature koi in concrete facilities are able to see over time which koi coming from which oyagoi combination are more susceptible to hikui. Therefore, such breeders can make the necessary adjustment to suit hobbyist pond by eliminating the hikui gene that will not show itself only in greenwater but may show in hobbyist pond.

    Yes, hobbyist can indeed transfer his koi to a green mudpond. But exactly how many hobbyist have access to green mudponds? I pondered this thought during the early stage of the hikui on the koi separate from the rest of the koi herd which never had hikkui problem. I even tried making my pond green. While it helped somewhat the hikui problem, there was less enjoyment in the hobby while some of the koi lost their appetite. Eventually I just decided to sell the koi. No point in experimenting further and waiting more time.

  4. #44
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    koi are not people. No koi takes prescription drugs. There is absolutely no point in your story of the old people taking prescription drugs to koi. Period.
    Following your logic, drug companies that do trials on rats should do trials on humans to make valid conclusions on tests, right? After all, rats are not people. And people are not rats. That at least is my final confirmation on how I can relate to you. Sorry you can't understand my analogies. I may do a better job by crafting stories and parables and fables and fairy tales that may suit your level.

    Tumours on koi can only be removed by surgery. No such thing if the imbalance was corrected the tumour would disappear. You are like a wise guru but never giving a specific example on how to correct it. and please dont use people as example. Use actual experiences of koi hobbyist for pete's sake. Its always convenient to get analogy from peoples experiences but KOI are NOT HUMANS.
    Tumors on koi can ONLY be removed by surgery? Really? Oh, of course you've done your experiments and you can categorically say such things. My bad. I had always thought you were just a koi hobbyist. Now you're a scientist.

    The problem with your solutions is that its all based on IF.
    There is no problem if you can accept that my IFs as a methodical thought process that helps with finding answers. Obviously, you expect quick answers without much thought.


    Also for the thirteenth time nobody is saying that skin issues like hikkui and shimmies can be traced just genetics. I am just giving facts that breeders if they didnt take issues with hikkui as partly genetics then why would they prefer not to use hikkui prone oyagois.


    I'm saying you just keeping talking genetics and just keep blaming genes ad nauseum.

    So what if your dealer observes offsprings of certain oyagois are prone to hikkui when grown by a group of koi keepers the dealer sold to? It makes the case stronger that the genetics of the oyagoi are at fault, doesn't it? Have you thought about other possibilities that could be causing the hikkui? Can you methodically go through the process of eliminating these possibilities to make your case that the genetics of the oyagoi are at fault? Have you verified with the breeder that this prevalence of hikkui from offsrpings of said oyagoi also is confirmed in other tropical countries? Is the prevalence of hikkui similarly experienced in temperate countries?

    I doubt you have, given your proclivity to rush to conclusions without entertaining countervailing arguments, whether through your own critical thought process or through dissenting thoughts from others. I've given many rebuttals of your replies, which honestly seem more like drive by blogging than anything else.




  5. #45
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=yerrag;221865]Following your logic, drug companies that do trials on rats should do trials on humans to make valid conclusions on tests, right? After all, rats are not people. And people are not rats. That at least is my final confirmation on how I can relate to you. Sorry you can't understand my analogies. I may do a better job by crafting stories and parables and fables and fairy tales that may suit your level.


    There is such a thing as CLINICAL TRIALS. Clinical trials are experiments that use human subjects to see whether a drug is effective, and what side effects it may cause. FDA will never approve a drug without any clinical trial. Just exactly how does an old person taking prescription related to a koi that lets say lost its high quality beni at an early age but continued to be robust in health, growth and appetite for years to come. All it proves to me that the skin quality and growth/size is not in synch. There are many examples of koi with skin quality that peaked at a young age. and its mostly genetics.


    Tumors on koi can ONLY be removed by surgery? Really? Oh, of course you've done your experiments and you can categorically say such things. My bad. I had always thought you were just a koi hobbyist. Now you're a scientist.


    There is no problem if you can accept that my IFs as a methodical thought process that helps with finding answers. Obviously, you expect quick answers without much thought.


    [COLOR=#333333][INDENT]

    No its just by observation over the years. But please enlighten me on your known less invasive method of removing tumours from koi. Im sure the Japanese breeders would be interested to learn from you.

    [COLOR=#222222]I'm saying you just keeping talking genetics and just keep blaming genes ad nauseum.

    I never said I kept on blaming on genes. I said hikui is a complex matter and one of the ways breeders are reducing incidence is pairing oyagoi that is more resistant to it. Personally I happen to believe its a combination or caused by either a combination of genetics, water quality/environment and amount of UV light.

  6. #46
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=sacicu;221866]
    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Following your logic, drug companies that do trials on rats should do trials on humans to make valid conclusions on tests, right? After all, rats are not people. And people are not rats. That at least is my final confirmation on how I can relate to you. Sorry you can't understand my analogies. I may do a better job by crafting stories and parables and fables and fairy tales that may suit your level.


    There is such a thing as CLINICAL TRIALS. Clinical trials are experiments that use human subjects to see whether a drug is effective, and what side effects it may cause. Just exactly how does an old person taking prescription related to a koi that lets say lost its high quality beni at an early age but continued to be robust in health, growth and appetite for years to come


    Tumors on koi can ONLY be removed by surgery? Really? Oh, of course you've done your experiments and you can categorically say such things. My bad. I had always thought you were just a koi hobbyist. Now you're a scientist.


    There is no problem if you can accept that my IFs as a methodical thought process that helps with finding answers. Obviously, you expect quick answers without much thought.


    [COLOR=#333333][INDENT]

    No its just by observation over the years. But please enlighten me on your known less invasive method of removing tumours from koi. Im sure the Japanese breeders would be interested to learn from you.

    [COLOR=#222222]I'm saying you just keeping talking genetics and just keep blaming genes ad nauseum.

    I never said I kept on blaming on genes. I said hikui is a complex matter and one of the ways breeders are reducing incidence is pairing oyagoi that is more resistant to it. Personally I happen to believe its a combination or caused by either a combination of genetics, water quality/environment and amount of UV light.
    You are talking about late stage human clinical trials. Haven't you ever heard of the concept of lab rats?

    Okay, it's an observation over the years. Are you sure the Japanese breeders would be interested to learn from me? Although I doubt that to be the case, and your statement is said in jest, and I'm taking that in context, I'll reiterate that the tumors in koi (and yes, in humans, again- so sorry that I cannot buy into the law of "Koi and humans are 100% different") are a problem of metabolism. Garbage in, garbage out. Feed wrong food, put in poor environment, creates imbalances that favor the growth of cancer. Change the environment, change the inputs for the better, and the cancer will be resolved. I would give you links to Ray Peat's writings on the subject, but I refrain from doing that now as it would just subject both me and Ray Peat to ridicule. If you want, send me a PM and I'll be happy to oblige. I don't want to regurgitate what can be contained in a link, and certainly, Ray Peat is no expert in koi, but I'm willing to bet koi and humans are not that different.

    Well, that at least bridges the divide. Certainly, hikui is a complex matter. I don't have all the answers and neither do you. In the absence of that, it's to each his own, in the way he pieces together the available information and hoiw he puts them together. I have my own way of approaching it, and you have yours. We both would like to see our koi develop well, and would want to minimize incidences of hikkui and shimi. Sharing the right iformation definitely would be better than sharing the wrong information. In the absence of a definitive right or wrong, one can only argue why he thinks a certain way and to detail his logic.

    At least the koi-bito forum is not an echo chamber of one set of ideas. I, for one, do not like to defer to so-called experts who says this and that, and says that's the final word on it. And will brook no disagreement. I don't try to dissent just for the sake of dissenting either. I have valid reasons to present a different take. There are no "groupies" here and that's a good thing.

  7. #47
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=yerrag;221867]
    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    You are talking about late stage human clinical trials. Haven't you ever heard of the concept of lab rats?

    Okay, it's an observation over the years. Are you sure the Japanese breeders would be interested to learn from me? Although I doubt that to be the case, and your statement is said in jest, and I'm taking that in context, I'll reiterate that the tumors in koi (and yes, in humans, again- so sorry that I cannot buy into the law of "Koi and humans are 100% different") are a problem of metabolism. Garbage in, garbage out. Feed wrong food, put in poor environment, creates imbalances that favor the growth of cancer. Change the environment, change the inputs for the better, and the cancer will be resolved. I would give you links to Ray Peat's writings on the subject, but I refrain from doing that now as it would just subject both me and Ray Peat to ridicule. If you want, send me a PM and I'll be happy to oblige. I don't want to regurgitate what can be contained in a link, and certainly, Ray Peat is no expert in koi, but I'm willing to bet koi and humans are not that different.

    Well, that at least bridges the divide. Certainly, hikui is a complex matter. I don't have all the answers and neither do you. In the absence of that, it's to each his own, in the way he pieces together the available information and hoiw he puts them together. I have my own way of approaching it, and you have yours. We both would like to see our koi develop well, and would want to minimize incidences of hikkui and shimi. Sharing the right iformation definitely would be better than sharing the wrong information. In the absence of a definitive right or wrong, one can only argue why he thinks a certain way and to detail his logic.

    At least the koi-bito forum is not an echo chamber of one set of ideas. I, for one, do not like to defer to so-called experts who says this and that, and says that's the final word on it. And will brook no disagreement. I don't try to dissent just for the sake of dissenting either. I have valid reasons to present a different take. There are no "groupies" here and that's a good thing.

    ", drug companies that do trials on rats should do trials on humans to make valid conclusions on tests, right?"

    answered: yes. there is such a thing as clinical trials before a drug is even approved by FDA.

    You asked and I answered. simple.

    Have I heard of lab rats?

    Yes I do.



    Yes everyone here.would be.interested to learn how they can remove or eliminate a koi with a tumout without invasive surgery. Please enlighten us. Just saying change the environment is rather saying it in general. Be more specific. The same goes to eliminating incidence of hikui and shimi. I really am interested to hear your specific recommendations.

  8. #48
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Just like I said, you can PM me and ask me and I can send you links. It is up to you to pick up from there. Then you can sum it up here.

    But I don't really think you would. It's just like I'm converting you to a new religion. Your set of beliefs are already set in stone.

    I now very well understand why this forum has lost many members. Many good ideas that you eventually outgrow. It's stuck in reverse after that. New ideas for discussion gets weighted down by the rigidity and the inertia of past knowledge, limiting discovery. If you're just starting out in koi keeping, this forum is a great resource. But if you want to be truly a great koi keeper, go elsewhere.

  9. #49
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    *** It's just like I'm converting you to a new religion. Your set of beliefs are already set in stone. *** New ideas for discussion gets weighted down by the rigidity and the inertia of past knowledge, limiting discovery.
    Yerrag, those who come to K-B are very open to considering new ideas, but do expect new ideas to be vetted against the real world of actual facts. When actual observations of innumerable koikeepers over lengthy time periods are inconsistent with a new idea, either the new idea has to be modified or there needs to be an explanation of how the known facts can be reconciled with the new idea. You have given the impression that you prefer to posit 'what if' notions and to ignore known facts. You may not have meant to do this, but it has occurred. New thoughts on how known facts can be reconciled in a manner that gives greater insight into a matter affecting koi husbandry are always welcome. If the new idea survives challenge, it adds to our understanding. When a thought can survive only by ignoring what is known, it should be discarded.... or, the known facts have to be re-investigated to confirm whether they are facts or myth.

    Nobody has questioned the thought that poor health adversely affects skin quality. The challenge has been to the idea that hikkui establishes a koi has poor overall health. The 'rigidity' of thought I have observed is in your positing of ideas (not facts) in support of your thesis which are either not supported by facts or are contrary to what has been observed on countless occasions. This gives the impression that you are unwilling to recognize what is known if it is inconsistent with your theory. For just one example, above you put forward as unassailable that a koi with a tumor cannot have high skin quality and high quality beni. What is the basis of this notion? I can tell you as a fact that there have been (and undoubtedly are today) Kohaku with such excellent skin quality and beni that they would be highly competitive in the major Japanese shows but for the fact that a tumor ruins their body form and swimming motion. Will such koi eventually have a decline in skin quality as the tumor progresses?... very likely at some stage as body functions go into decline, but some tumors progress so slowly that the koi may remain quite beautiful for many years and the decline in skin & beni quality could be more a factor of aging than the impact of the tumor on body functions. It would be better to inquire about such matters before asserting as fact what others know from their experience not to be accurate.

    It would be regrettable if you decided to abandon K-B. Your affinity for novel approaches keeps folks thinking, which is a good thing. It has always been a hallmark of K-B that novel ideas get challenged and in that way get to prove themselves and become refined, or get discarded, which is also a good thing. ....That the Bakki Shower was a huge leap in filtration due to infra-red radiation emitted by bacteria house media was posited by Maeda-san himself in marketing materials. That idea was shot down rather mercilessly on K-B. I have seen that myth still survives in some niches of the hobby, but there are always some who prefer the mystical over the scientific method.
    ricshaw likes this.

  10. #50
    Sansai
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    This post reminds of the American election posts between the Manila man and the Canadian.

    Donald J.Trump, a spade is a spade is a spade man, romps home at a canter.

    Now who would have thought that?

    The best half of America new it.

    Garfield

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