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Thread: Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?

  1. #1
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?

    Dear breeding experienced friends, in spawning I've seen several koi grow much bigger than others and looks two years old at the end of season but som are normal tosai and some still fingerling.

  2. #2
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    I think that is just as normal as seeing pups of kittens sucking off mama's breasts. Some just grow faster because they are more competitive for food, and some are runts for starting off weaker at the start and getting less food. It's a vicious cycle as the strong gets stronger and keeps getting more food, and the weak gets weaker (relatively).

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I agree with Yerrag's comment. Plus, some are just runts that will never develop well, and some are throwbacks to wilder genetics that are simply more robust... 'tobi fry'. The tobi fry get culled in Japan because they monopolize the food and will eat their smaller brethren, and are low quality fish not worth the cost of what they consume. They are typically a vague orange or brown in color with no patterning.

  4. #4
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Just as everyone else has stated in previous posts, there are a few factors involved. Genetics play a big role and not all the fry will get the right combination to represent anything that looks like nishikigoi in either body shape or coloration. The overwhelming majority won't in fact, and you may end up with 0.5% or less that are actually passable as koi of some quality. While genetics is definitely a cause, I think that there are other factors such as microclimate around the individual egg during through hatching until the fry become free-swimming. Slightly different temperatures, water quality, available oxygen, light, etc depending on where the egg is located on a spawning rope or in a pond. Not everything in their microclimate is uniform, and this can make a big difference in their first two weeks after the spawn.

    I've attached some photos below of a few fry that I put aside for a local friend after 2nd cull. He mostly wanted something to stock his water garden with, but wanted 1 or 2 "keepers" to learn from. These are all from the same sanke spawning, but you can see quite clearly that the fry that are much larger than their peers are either single-colored, or have very little of what could be considered a pattern. I may keep a few of the orange ones in the hopes of having 1 or 2 decent benigoi but only from a kohaku spawning. These photos were taken in the beginning of July, and if you had seen the same fry at 1st cull the size difference is even more pronounced with the heads of the tobi being magnitudes larger than their more normal sized siblings.

    In any koi population, you can observe that certain koi are very aggressive about competing for food and some aren't. Not sure how this comes about, but perhaps it is different inherit survival strategies: one favoring aggressive feeding, and the other preferring to be more caution and minimize opportunities for predators or injury. Perhaps trying to compete in different niches, really not sure. I have a feeling that the tobi are also able to better convert protein into quick growth than their peers, but that would have to be studied in an experiment rather than just a hunch from observation. Also, out of tobi that I have kept they were almost exclusively males so there may be a genetic preference for these males to grow as quickly as possible in order to breed.

    Just as everyone says, these have to be culled out or at the very least put into a pond that is sparsely stocked so that they don't resort to cannibalizing their siblings.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_0776.jpg   Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_0778.jpg   Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_0780.jpg   Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_0781.jpg   Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_0783.jpg  

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    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  5. #5
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Thanks For everyone, Koi keeping is great love, breeding is something far different and of course love full moments.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Brian:

    You have made me curious about what you are up to. You assiduously avoid posting anything on K-B that might be taken as 'commercial' or self-promotion. But, perhaps you could bend your standard a little with some news of what you are breeding and seek to accomplish?

    ...You do know that a lot of backyard breeders would be proud to produce your culls.

  7. #7
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Just as everyone else has stated in previous posts, there are a few factors involved. Genetics play a big role and not all the fry will get the right combination to represent anything that looks like nishikigoi in either body shape or coloration. The overwhelming majority won't in fact, and you may end up with 0.5% or less that are actually passable as koi of some quality. While genetics is definitely a cause, I think that there are other factors such as microclimate around the individual egg during through hatching until the fry become free-swimming. Slightly different temperatures, water quality, available oxygen, light, etc depending on where the egg is located on a spawning rope or in a pond. Not everything in their microclimate is uniform, and this can make a big difference in their first two weeks after the spawn.

    I've attached some photos below of a few fry that I put aside for a local friend after 2nd cull. He mostly wanted something to stock his water garden with, but wanted 1 or 2 "keepers" to learn from. These are all from the same sanke spawning, but you can see quite clearly that the fry that are much larger than their peers are either single-colored, or have very little of what could be considered a pattern. I may keep a few of the orange ones in the hopes of having 1 or 2 decent benigoi but only from a kohaku spawning. These photos were taken in the beginning of July, and if you had seen the same fry at 1st cull the size difference is even more pronounced with the heads of the tobi being magnitudes larger than their more normal sized siblings.

    In any koi population, you can observe that certain koi are very aggressive about competing for food and some aren't. Not sure how this comes about, but perhaps it is different inherit survival strategies: one favoring aggressive feeding, and the other preferring to be more caution and minimize opportunities for predators or injury. Perhaps trying to compete in different niches, really not sure. I have a feeling that the tobi are also able to better convert protein into quick growth than their peers, but that would have to be studied in an experiment rather than just a hunch from observation. Also, out of tobi that I have kept they were almost exclusively males so there may be a genetic preference for these males to grow as quickly as possible in order to breed.

    Just as everyone says, these have to be culled out or at the very least put into a pond that is sparsely stocked so that they don't resort to cannibalizing their siblings.
    Brian could you possibly share the parents photo?

  8. #8
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Brian:

    You have made me curious about what you are up to. You assiduously avoid posting anything on K-B that might be taken as 'commercial' or self-promotion. But, perhaps you could bend your standard a little with some news of what you are breeding and seek to accomplish?

    ...You do know that a lot of backyard breeders would be proud to produce your culls.
    Hi Mike,

    I do try to keep commercial posts off of KB, but I've been thinking about that quite a bit lately and think that perhaps it would generate more interest and bring more activity to the board.

    It's taken a few years and I've had some setbacks, but I think I'm finally around the corner on realizing a long time dream. I have the acreage in Delaware land that is blessed with plentiful ground water and clay soils that hold water well.

    This year, I'm planning on breeding about 5 parents sets, circumstances willing, and about double that the following year. I'm also considering bring some jumbo tosai from Japan for a growout here in Delaware. Will have to see what's available and what interest there is before I commit to that.

    I've created new FB and Twitter pages:


    Facebook: MiyabiKoiFarmUSA
    Twitter: @MiyabiKoi

    If you want to follow there, I'm going to try to keep both those pages updates as the season moves on. I'll be breeding gosanke, and some muji this year. Possibly goshiki and kujaku, but haven't committed to that yet for this season.
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    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Sounds good... Going too fast in koi breeding is the road to ruin. I think there is a market for nisai grown out from tosai, but reaching it through FB, etc. is a job in itself.

  10. #10
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Brian could you possibly share the parents photo?
    Hi Reza,

    Sure, I can definitely share the parents from that spawning. The female that I used was 93cm Kichinai and Sadazo lines, shown in the first photo.


    Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-kichinai-sanke-web.jpg

    Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-2764-feb2011-koi.jpg Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_3285.jpg Why some fries are not grow as same others Grow?-img_2751_small.jpg

    Used these three males during that spawning: left - Matsunosuke/Jimbei; center - Sadazo; Right - Jimbei

    The Kichinai female had a lot of traits of that line that I really liked. Sadly, she didn't make it out of the mudpond after her last spawning. I think these 3 males paired fairly well with her, but the sumi was very hit/miss. There were some beautiful specimens from the breeding, but quite low numbers where the sumi wasn't overpowering. That's to be somewhat expected from a sanke spawning, so I learned quite a bit from this pairing and have other ideas moving forward.
    MikeM and Reza like this.
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

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