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Thread: Which breed is better pair for kumonryu?

  1. #1
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Which breed is better pair for kumonryu?

    Hi Friends,

    There is two kumonryu in different Provinces and first one is 3 years male and other one is 4 years female. which breed is suggested for pairing with them?
    I only could say don't pair with metallic breeds. I don't know more .

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I get confused by Kumonryu. The standard text focuses on how the sumi pattern is always changing. I have seen a few that have radically different patterns during the course of a year and from year to year. However, most I have seen in person are not so ever-changing. Some seem to become nearly solid black by the time they are around 4 years old, and some seem to develop a pattern that remains pretty much the same by the time they are 4 or 5 years old. These give an impression of a doitsu shiro utsuri at first glance...until you see that the black is running laterally along the side and not wrapping. It seems to me that a breeder would need to have a good deal of experience with specific fish to have any idea of how the offspring might develop.

    There are very interesting developments in koi breeding using Kumonryu as a parent. In Poland it has been used to create a different sort of Showa.... a koi that by its patterning would be benched as Showa, but with sumi derived from Kumonryu and a body form not as 'front-loaded' as traditional Showa.

    If the goal is to create more Kumonryu, why not breed Kumonryu to Kumonryu? If the goal is to create something different and have more variety among the offspring, then consider comments made by Aoki in an interview with Mamoru Kodama some years ago:

    "Kodama: “Kikokuryu” that you created made a sensation in the Nishikigoi world. Please tell us about the creation process of Kikokuryu.

    Aoki: It was 1993. 10 years ago, I crossbred a male Kumonryu with a female Kikusui. At the time, “Kikokuryu” appeared. When the Kikokuryu became three years old, it won “Best-in-Variety” at the All Japan Combined Young Nishikigoi Show.

    Kodama: The Kikokuryu at that time was beautiful because the sumi pattern was described on a shiny platinum body, it is not an exaggeration to say it was an innovative new variety. There was no koi that had sumi on platinum. Your contribution was truly great. Also, “Beni Kikokuryu,” another one of your creations, is famous. How did you create it?

    Aoki: It is also from a Kumonryu. Kikokuryu simply has sumi on platinum. But by crossing a Kikusui with a Kumonryu, “the red of the Kikusui” came out. Koi without red became Kikokuryu whereas koi with red became Beni Kikokuryu.

    Kodama: Interesting. “Kin Kikokuryu” was created by Mr. Seiki Igarashi in Ozumori. Please explain the difference from that koi.

    Aoki: Kin Kikokuryu of Mr. Igarashi has gold. My Beni Kikokuryu has “cinnabar red.” It is a difference of gold and cinnabar red.

    Kodama: I see. Because Mr. Igarashi crossed a Kumonryu with a Kin Showa Sanshoku to create Kin Kikokuryu, it has a golden color. You crossed a Kumonryu with a Kikusui for Beni Kikokuryu; it has red.

    Aoki: Exactly. Therefore, my Beni Kikokuryu is characterized with a deep red hi.

    Kodama: Speaking of characteristics, Beni Kikokuryu continuously changes sumi, doesn’t it?

    Aoki: Yes. The hi pattern of Beni Kikokuryu does not change, but the sumi does depending on the environment. It is a fun part of Beni Kikokuryu that the sumi changes like the Kumonryu. Here in picture A is the Beni Kikokuryu when it won Best-in-Size at a koi show in England. Picture B shows the same koi when it left Japan. More sumi appeared after it arrived in England.

    Kodama: Mmmm. It changed very wonderfully. The change of sumi is a charm of Beni Kikokuryu. Now, please tell us how you breed Kikokuryu.

    Aoki: When I breed Kikokuryu, because its parent is Kumonryu, we cull only black fry from the beginning to the end. After they hatch, we first pick only the black fry. And while keeping them for about one month, they grow about 3cm (1˝) long. Again, we cull only black fry. At this culling, we throw away gray ones and sort only lacquer black ones. And, at the third culling, hi comes out little by little. But we still put “sumi quality” as a top priority in culling.

    Kodama: Does platinum color appear at tosai?

    Aoki: At the first and second culling, platinum color does not appear. At around the third time, it starts glittering. But still, we sort them only by sumi quality. The sorting work holds no enjoyment as in Kohaku and Taisho Sanshoku at all. It is nothing but repetition, tedious sorting work.

    Kodama: I see. Beautiful Nishikigoi do not appear until you repeat three cullings patiently, which is not fun or pleasant. Around when does the sheen start appearing?

    Aoki: Well, at the third sorting when they are about 6 to 7cm (2˝ to 3˝), the sheen can be recognized little by little. The sheen gets stronger as the koi grows. "



    BTW, Aoki also said that out of 300,000 fry, he ended up with just 3,000 saleable tosai, only a very few of which were worthy of being kept a second year. Whenever mixing varieties, there will be lots of junk fish competing with the few worthy ones. Since Kumonryu is not a long refined variety (unlike gosanke varieties), there will be more ugly fish in the offspring.

  3. #3
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike,that was great post. What is your Idea about crossing kumonryu with Aka Hajiro or beniGoi?

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Well, I will give my thoughts, but if someone with real experience breeding with Kumonryu comes along, I would defer to their experience.

    It seems to me that the purpose for crossing Kumonryu with Aka Hajiro or Benigoi would be to create Beni Kumonryu, but using Kohaku could head in a similar direction. With Benigoi you are dealing with a fish that lacks (or has a weak) 'spreading white gene' ... the genetics that gives patterning on a white ground. With Kohaku, the genetics for step patterning is strong. Kumonryu has Shusui in the background, which tends to have lateral patterning of red. So, it seems to me that if the Kumonryu parent has the 'hidden genes' for lateral patterning, there gets to be something of a conflict as to what sort of patterning wins out in particular offspring. Some of both types? Some intermediate?

    With Aka Hajiro, I assume you are speaking of a red koi with white in the pectoral fins, and perhaps some white on the face. These are a step closer to Kohaku and some could be considered Kohaku with poor patterning. I think Aka Hajiro tend to have better Hi than most solid red koi (which are perhaps better described as Akamuji or Akagoi than Higoi or Benigoi, IMO). For reasons I have never understood, red pigment tends to be stronger when a koi has white on it. Akamuji tend to have a light belly (colorless or pale yellowish), but not a true white belly. Kohaku have a white belly. If the Aka Hajiro has a white belly, not a pale yellowish or colorless belly, then the tendency seems to be for the red pigment to be stronger where it does appear. This has been my observation of tendencies (not absolutes) in such fish, but my observation is limited so I may not be correct. It is counter-intuitive. In any event, if I was introducing red pigment into Kumonryu, I would favor the one with the stronger pigment, which I expect would be the Aka Hajiro over the Akamuji.

    By crossing a doitsu (Kumonryu) with wagoi (Aka Hajiro or Akamuji), there will be the potential for Beni Matsukawabake.... which can look like Showa, but truly old-fashioned ones like what was seen prior to World War II. These are not attractive koi by today's standards. A decision will need to be made whether wagoi offspring are kept or culled. I would keep only doitsu, which would help cut down the numbers to a more manageable level sooner. But, that is a personal choice of what goal(s) to try to accomplish. If there is more than one goal with a spawn, it takes twice as much growing space to allow fry to develop to a size where decisions can be made. The real expertise of breeders is not in the breeding or raising, but in the culling. The experienced breeder knows what to eliminate at a very small size. The inexperienced must keep everything longer or will cull what should be kept. So, culling for comparatively easy to see traits is helpful for the inexperienced to get the numbers down... If you cull defects, keep only the black fry, and cull wagoi when it can be seen they have scales, then more food and space is available for the ones with a chance of becoming Beni Kumonryu. When red begins to appear, you can decide whether you will try only for Beni Kumonryu and cull all without any red. Perhaps by then the number is already so low that it does not strain the space to keep more longer.

    Again, just my thoughts. If you get advice from someone with hands on experience, rely on it.
    Jake Levi and Reza like this.

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