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Thread: What is the good pair of parents conditions?

  1. #1
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    What is the good pair of parents conditions?

    Dear friends,
    May be already Asked question I did small search in forum but I couldn't find similar topic.

    Regardless to what variety we want to breed I think there could be some parameters in case of male(males) and female should be checked out.
    I don't know may be I am partially or totally wrong and it depend's on variety. Anyway I will be appreciated if you share your knowledge and Idea.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I am uncertain what sort of factors you are interested in. It would be best if someone with many years of experience responded. I will give my thoughts for what they are worth. Perhaps an experienced breeder (including a backyard breeder) will chime in.

    As a start point, the fish should be sexually mature. While two year old males will definitely spawn, my observation has been that breeders use males that are three to six years old. Older ones do get used, but it seems to me that after 6 or 7 years a male ceases to be used very much. I am unsure why, but have heard that the ratio of deformities increases with koi of advanced age. With females the question is the size and quantity of eggs. Young females may have eggs, but they tend to be smaller and fewer. This results in smaller spawns and weaker fry. Larger eggs have more stored nutrient for development of the embryo. My impression is that the 4 to 8 year range is optimal, but obviously there are show winners which are not used until their show careers are over, which often is not until they are 8 years or older. Prized female oyagoi continue to be used until they simply wear out, although I have read of some older ones being used only alternate years.

    Conditioning the breeders for spawning is another topic. I am not aware of a general practice used by breeders. I do recall reading about a breeder who considered the late summer as the time to commence conditioning females by feeding heavily (presumably with high protein food??) so the fish bulked up before the winter fasting period. Eggs begin to develop in late summer and autumn. When feeding commences in the Spring, the oyagoi are fed well to encourage egg development so there will be a large quantity of healthy eggs by the time of spawning in May and early June. ....How to tell whether the eggs are ready is something I do not recall reading anything about. I would guess that early in the Spring the eggs would be smaller, and by late Spring they are larger and more likely to produce robust fry.

    Are there other aspects you are trying to learn about?

    ....I hope someone with experience will post, or someone who has an article describing some breeder's practices.

  3. #3
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Dear Mike,

    Thaks for your reply I've some questions and looking for answers:

    One of the most important questions for me is that koi can be paired with 2 years old why In Japan they keep avoiding of spawning in early years.

    The next one is from where breeder finds the best match male(s) for a typical female or reverse.

    The good parent should have some sort of evaluable physical factors (I guess)body length, shape, age, the percentage of pattern coverage or some things like that.

    which genotypes from the male are dominant and which others from the female. I've heard that body shape and length mostly are inherited from the male but skin quality, pattern quality, are inheriting from the female.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    First, regarding the last point... The idea that female oyagoi are selected for their body and males for their pattern is prevalent, but sort of gets things backwards. My observation is that female oyagoi are selected based on body form, size, skin quality and pigment quality. Usually, the female is selected first. This is because (1) the most valuable offspring are the females, with nearly all males being sold off in bulk as soon as the breeder can determine the probable sex; and (2) there are a lot more females who are potential oyagoi than there are males... because the males were sold off as quickly as they could be. Then the males are selected to match up with the female. Since pattern is the least important factor in choosing the female parent (I did not even list it), the chances are pretty good that the female does not have good patterning. So, pattern becomes a factor in choosing a male. Pigment quality is a big factor in selecting a male. I have been told that skin quality is not as much a factor as with females simply because males do not have skin as good as females anyway, but since pigment thickness, clarity, etc. are a major factor, and these are affected by the skin, I am not so sure that skin is as unimportant in a male as some have said. If the female is a Showa with little sumi, it may be desirable to match her with a male with heavy sumi to try to get a higher ratio of offspring with the sumi balance the breeder wants. If the female is a Kohaku with beni that is too orange, it may be desired to find a male with a brighter red. The breeder may be concerned about too many defects from in-breeding, and thus search for a male from a different strain. The overall idea is to find a match that the breeder hopes will create the opportunity to produce some offspring that are better than either parent... but still have a profitable overall batch of offspring. I am aware of a breeder who produced his best Sanke from a particular pairing, but the overall number of marketable offspring was repeatedly so small a percentage that he could not make any profit. So, he gave up on it and used other pairings that produced a higher percentage of marketable young.

    A two year old female koi may be capable of producing eggs, but is too young to know whether she is worthwhile. She is (should be) still developing. If she has fully developed by two years... as to size, body form, pigment, etc., she is not a good prospect for breeding. It is not until the koi is older that you can know whether she can be truly show quality. For the Japanese breeder, the goal is to produce koi that will do well in shows. The older female has developed to reveal these characteristics and has the maturity to produce a greater quantity of eggs with higher rates of viability... until she gets too old, of course.
    Reza likes this.

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